I've been working with men for years, and there's one wound that shows up in almost every conversation, every coaching session, every retreat I run. It's the father wound, and I knew the men in this community needed to hear this conversation with Melanie Curtin on Dear Men. Because here's what I've learned: you can do all the work in the world, but until you address this gaping hole of nutrients we didn't get from our fathers, you'll keep hitting the same walls in your relationships, your career, your sense of self.
What really struck me in this conversation was how much this wound lives in the nervous system. I've done all kinds of work, therapies, medicines, different modalities, and sometimes it's almost annoying how it still comes back to that thing I didn't get from my dad. That presence, that energy that helps us learn to be masculine in the world and handle ourselves.
We got into some specific patterns I see constantly. The freeze response when you don't know how to do something. That deep anxiety about getting it wrong. The way some guys never left the mother because they had no father to go to. And on the flip side, the high achiever dad who's hyper involved but has zero curiosity about what you actually want or feel.
One thing I shared was this experience on a men's rafting trip where I realized I was literally positioning myself to avoid doing anything I didn't know how to do. I had to sit down with my guys and say, I need your help this weekend. I need permission to ask really mundane, dumb questions. It was vulnerable as hell, but so freeing.
We also talked about anger, which for a lot of men gets cut off because of what they saw from an aggressive dad. But clean, open hearted anger is just deep caring. It means you really care. And if you want to be an impactful masculine leader, you have to be able to access that energy. Even if it's just learning to say no. Or back off. That's a boundary. That's saying this isn't okay and I'm standing up for something more.
This is a big part of why men's work matters so much right now. We're missing that cross generational connection. Those imprints of what's possible. I remember watching one of my early mentors handle conflict in a group and thinking, that's how I want to be when I'm old. You can get these imprints from other places when you didn't get them from your dad.
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Jason Lange: And if you want to be an impactful, you know, masculine leader, you have to be able to access that, you know, for your sake, for the sake of your loved ones. Doesn't mean you have to, you know, become a martial artist or something, but you have to know how to touch that energy. And in some ways, you know, the simplest version of this I sometimes work with guys is just like, is, you know, no. Or back off. You know, those are two versions we've played with before in workshops of just like setting a boundary of like, no. Or, you know, whatever that energy is. That's just saying this isn't okay. And I'm standing up for something more right now.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dear Men with my fan favorite, Jason Lange. Thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: Excited to be back?
Melanie Curtin: I am just presencing. I did my own personal growth workshop this past weekend and so now I have a throaty voice because I did some rage work and it was fantastic. So that's why I might sound a little different today. We are addressing the father wound today and how do you know if you have one? How does it affect a man? And then we'll sort of also talk about what you can do about it. So, yeah, I would love to hear just a basic version of what you would define as the father wound. We're going to go into a few archetypes, but what's the kind of overarching father wound? Because I think some people might not know.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, there's, there's different ways to cover this. But the, the one that's probably most present to me right now and certainly from my own experience, it's just a frame to talk about. This is like the gaping hole of the nutrients. I didn't get like that. You know, ideally, a parental unit, father in particular, gives us a certain kind of presence and energy and nutrient that helps particularly us as men learn to be masculine in the world and how to handle ourselves. But, you know, that goes for fathers teaching girls or boys or, you know, there's a certain energy that brings. And when we haven't gotten that, it's like a gaping hole that I've experienced in myself as a man and in the, you know, years of men's work I've done, like, it really shows up and it shows up. It can show up when you're, you know, 14 years old and it can show up when you're a 70 year old man, like still, still feeling the impact of that, that lack of getting this kind of crucial Thing from the father, this crucial, crucial set of nutrients, as I like to say, and that we can do. You know, I was just joking with you before. This part of my journey has been like, we do all. I've done all kinds of work and modalities and therapies and medicines and all these different things. And sometimes it's kind of like, it's almost kind of annoying to me sometimes how simply it just comes back to like, and there was that thing I didn't get. And like, I'm still working that through my nervous system, through my choices, through my day to day, to this day, like, even after all of that. And I think, you know, there's often talks culturally about a crisis of fathers and the lack of presence of fathers and changing family units and just the fact that, you know, this day probably more than other, any other, you can be a boy and basically be raised without a dad, without any masculine in your life. And that can have, you know, a real long term impact on you and create, you know, whether we call it the wound or the kind of gaping hole of a certain something that we didn't get, which then impacts our presence as men in the world throughout our lives.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Including in relationship. Which is sort of part of why we're doing this episode. Because I would say, I would say the majority of our clients have some kind of father wound. And we're going to go into the different, different kinds there are. And I think I just want to say up front that this is not unresolvable. It's not irreparable. It's not that you have the father wound and it's just this gaping ma for your entire life. And it never gets better. It's just like any other wound. It can be healed and it heals faster when you actually address it. Right. If you don't address a wound, it gets infected, it spreads. Now it's harder. You have to treat the whole system. It's a whole thing. So just kind of want to say that up front and you know, when you're talking about the nutrient missing nutrients, I think that a good example of that is just the transmission of healthy affection, healthy masculine affection, the feeling of being loved by dad. Healthy affection is often missing. Right. If dad is shut down or dad is emotionally cut off himself, or if dad isn't around at all, just isn't around, then we don't get that nutrient. And to your point, you know, that has an effect. And you said something poignant on a call that I wanted to highlight, which was there's another nutrient involved, healthy dad, which is a transmission of, oh, you don't know how to do something. Let's figure it out together. I'll figure it out with you. Right. I will be there with you as we figure this out together. Not just I'm going to teach you how to do something, but I have faith that you can do this and I'll be there with you as we learn how to do it together. And that what you said was that when that's missing, it can rob a boy of his power because he never learns how to do things, how to take initiative, how to move forward, how to take action. And that, I think is one of the biggest patterns that we see in clients is passive. Men. Men that are passive in their lives, either passive at work or passive in relationships, pass passive with women just kind of waiting, often waiting for permission or just not taking action. And this is often where that stems from. So we're going to start to go through the archetypes. But I just wanted to. Yes. If you had anything you wanted to add about that piece of. I'll figure it out with you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, it's one that, I mean, I have firsthand lived experience of. So that's kind of where this, this transmission started incubating in me. And I've talked about it a couple times in different formats, but it's like, you know, a great representation of this. Right. As I've been doing lately over these last couple years, a lot gets filtered through the lines of I'm now a father myself, and the experience being on the other side of that with a child. And I remember one of the first. I don't remember where I read it, but there was a study just about kind of the differences between parenting between moms and dads. And just like a very simple example of this was again, a generalization. So not everyone does this, but when they did these large scale research studies, they had some statistics that kind of mapped here that, you know, those baby wearers that you can wear, they're like a. It's like a vest and you can kind of tuck your baby in it. What they found was with like, infants and young kids, moms tended to wear the baby facing them. So the baby was facing mom, like, kind of contained by her and safe and held. Dads tend to wear the baby facing out. So they're actually behind the baby and the baby's looking forward into the world of like, hey, here we go. We're going out into this new space together. And I'M right here with you. So it might be a little scary, it might be new, but. But I got your back. But we're going to go into the unknown a little bit, right? And that really shows up, I think, in, in this kind of energy of the, you know, the timidness or the kind of fear that, you know, I've had to work in my life of not having had that. So a. Like a fear of doing things wrong, not knowing how to do it right, and not really having the capacity in myself to even know how to ask for help, which is a big area. I see this one showing up in that. This nutrient of like. Yeah, it's that feeling of being like, in a way, side by side or having, you know, dad behind you and like, helping you learn how to swing or fix something or figure something out where there's, you know, you're actually encouraged to fail, but with support behind you. So it's like, oh, that didn't work well. Let's try this. Well, that didn't work well. What else could we try? And there's like a collaboration there that builds, I think, a real sense of resiliency that I've had to kind of like painfully cultivate over the years and retrain myself to get from other men and ask for help around and that I've seen, you know, I think there's some studies that, you know, a version of this resiliency of, you know, kids that are like sons of entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs, they will, like, launch and fail more businesses by the time they're 25 than other people do their whole life. And they fail so much, they eventually hit. They, like, eventually we'll have something that works, but, like, it's in their DNA to kind of try and not get it right and iterate. That creates a certain type of boldness I think that this nutrient really has. And so many of the guys, you know, we've gotten to work with, that I get to work with. And this is one of the things they're missing is like, I want to figure this out. And sometimes I literally just feel like I need someone on my side cheering me on and giving me some tips and guidance to, like, iterate through it a little bit. And it can be a painful thing when we don't have it. But, you know, as I've done the work and felt into and seen, like, what's been missing, it really comes down to that, like a dad who's just in there present with you and helping you figure out stuff, like helping you fail forward in some sense. And, you know, I had an experience. I think it was about a year and a half ago. I was on a men's retreat with some guys I knew on a river trip. And it, you know, it was river white water rafting. It was not an environment I was familiar with. So I was very much, like, in the hands of some close friends of mine. And I noticed as we were going to the weekend, I was, like, carrying incredible amount of anxiety. And as I started to, like, feel into why, I noticed I was, like, positioning myself sometimes in the boat or, you know, being available for conversations. To not have to do anything I didn't know how to do. Like, literally to not have to do anything I didn't know how to do because it felt so awkward. And there was, like, a real fear in me from just not having this energy, this nutrient built when I was young. And I had to, like, sit down with my guys and be like, I'm having this experience and I could really use your help, you know, this weekend of like, giving me permission to ask, like, really mundane, dumb questions of like, how do I tie that knot? Or how would I do that? Can you show me? And it was so vulnerable, but so freeing. And then just. Just an amazing, you know, like, outpouring of love and support from these men who are just like, oh, yeah, no, it's totally okay. You don't know how to do this stuff. Just. Just ask. But it was, like, so woven in me from not having. In that I, like, I was terrified of not knowing. And that showed up for me in a lot of areas of my life. And I think one of the versions of this that can manifest when we don't have that. That figure it out. Energy from. From. From a parental figure, particularly our dad, in that. That lives in our nervous system. So that's one way the father wound, you know, really kind of lived in me was like, a deep anxiety about not knowing and a way I would go kind of quiet or disappear rather than confront the awkwardness of getting it wrong in some sense.
Melanie Curtin: And can you say a little bit about that? Were you afraid that you would tie the knot wrong and then be shamed for that? What was the.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think shame's definitely a part of it. Like, even just like a doing it wrong or not knowing how to do it. Like, for me, it was kind of like a freeze, awkward state of just like, I don't know how to do that. Like, and as I traced it, it was because, oh, it makes me feel like I'm 8 years old and I don't know how to take care of myself. So that's what was coming out in those moments, like an 8 year old boy who was just kind of in a panic and didn't feel safe to ask for help because there hadn't been enough connection in some sense in my family unit to feel comfortable with that and didn't really have that presence in some key parts of my life. And so, you know, I think for some guys it could be shame, for some guys it could be. For some guys it could also just be kind of man box culture in general of, you know, you gotta always know your, always know your stuff, always be tough, always be on top of things, never show weakness. That gets drilled into us. You know, that wasn't so much my root of it. Mine was a little bit more personal in this sense. But yeah, there was just that like fear of admitting I didn't know what to do.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: I didn't even know how to do because it's like what you're like 41 years old and you don't know how to do this basic thing which no one actually cared about in that group in particular. Right. But it was such an old pattern in my nervous system. That was why it really like I had to confront it that weekend.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's a really good point about not feeling safe asking for help. Because I think that this is going to tie right into our first archetype, which is neglect. And I actually want to start with physical neglect is pretty obvious, meaning dad just is not around. There's just, Dad's just not around. So either dad is working all the time and isn't in the house, or dad passed away or dad is in prison or in some, in some. Or left or dad just left. Dad is not in the house, he's not around. That's I would call physical neglect and that's not the technical definition, but that's what we're talking about essentially of there's just no one there. There just isn't dad, he just isn't around.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: What you're pointing to, which I think is more a more common pattern that we see in clients is emotional neglect, which is dad is technically around, but dad is not really there. Dad is physically present but emotionally absent. There is a way that if you weren't attuned to by healthy dad and healthy mom, then of course it's going to feel really vulnerable to ask for help. Because if you haven't had that experience of someone paying attention to you tracking what's going on for you, asking about your feelings, just being with you, really being with you, being present, emotionally present with you, then it feels really scary because you feel like, maybe I'll ask and nothing will happen. Maybe I'll ask and they'll turn away. Maybe I'll ask and someone will ridicule me. There's no feedback loop. There's no. Parents are supposed to attune to the child. They are supposed to be tracking the child. They are supposed to be doing that all the time. And that's part of how the child knows who it is. And to your point, how to ask for help. So not knowing how to do something is not debilitating. If you feel comfortable saying, how do you. Why do this? Will you show me? It's only debilitating if you don't know how to do it. And it feels overwhelming and terrifying to ask for help. And that's something that I think I've witnessed a lot of growth in, in many of our clients is learning to stretch that muscle, learning how to reach out, learning how to ask for support. And I think it's a testament to all the personal growth and awareness and consciousness work that you have done that you were able to have that conversation with your men. You were able to say, hey, I'm noticing this pattern. I'm noticing I'm holding a lot of tension and anxiety in my body because I don't know how to do things and I'm kind of scared to ask. And then they were, then they had it on their radar that they knew how to support you. So that's already advanced practice that you demonstrated, even in speaking to that. So I think I've seen that kind of growth in a lot of our men. And that in and of itself is transformational because that the whole point of being able to ask for help is that we learn and we grow and then we know more and we, you know, it actually works. So it's a really effective thing to do. And it's again, also really, really. What's the word? Disruptive. If we cannot do it, if we can't ask for help when we need it, we get hurt. We get hurt. And often we get stuck or trapped in loops of rumination or whatever it is that can take years or decades to get over. So we're not as active in our lives, we're not as successful in our lives. It's a really big deal to ask for help.
Jason Lange: Huge, huge energy and time sync for me as I, you know, mapped back over time in all Kinds of different ways. Sometimes there was like a stubbornness where like I wouldn't ask for help. So I would like slave through trying to figure something out in totally unnecessary ways. That could have been a lot easier when I just learned how to like ask for support and say, hey, could you show me this thing? Or I don't know how to do this thing. You know, could. What would your suggestion be? And as I've, you know, cultivated that more, it's like, oh, it's way easier. It's just way easier. And it takes less time and way less energy.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's more efficient. It's a lot more efficient. And I think that's another thing that we've lost in the west in terms of indigenous culture versus Western culture is genuine respect for elders. And I'm not talking about Judeo Christian, honor thy father and mother, you know, submit to the authority of the church. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about wise men and women and beings in the tribe that would guide and were available for counsel that there were wise people available to you to go and ask for help from. That could help you access your intuition or just knew more than you. Right. You ask an 85 year old woman who's a matriarch how to do something, man. She's seen a lot. She has the institutional wisdom. And in many of our lives today, we don't have access to those kinds of wise elders. We only have our nuclear family and whoever we're coming across at school or coaches, things like that, we do have access to some folks, but we used to live, actually live in tribes where that was normal. And we would watch our parents, for example, go to the elders. It was part of the culture that we learned and have lost. And I think there's big loss there. But that's not exactly what this episode is about. So we're going to keep going on the archetypes. So the neglect dad wasn't around is pretty straightforward. Neglect, emotional neglect. Dad was around, but not really. There's sort of two versions of this. One is he wasn't emotionally attuned, he wasn't available. And that can be because he was, like I said, cut off or depressed, depressed himself. You know, I've talked to men who said there were sort of two versions, that there was dad before he lost his job and there was dad after. Right. Like they'll say, yeah, when I was six, my dad lost his job and he changed and things changed in the house. So sometimes there can be an event or a Trauma, and dad just becomes unavailable. And that makes a big difference. And sometimes it can be alcoholism or drug addiction, some kind of just. There are just big, large, massive chunks of time when dad is not available. He might be around, but he is checked out, he is numbing out. He is not there. And that dad is absolutely not tracking his son. He is not helping his son with his homework. He is often become someone that. In those cases, a lot of times the child is parentified, meaning the child becomes the caregiver. So they have to be the one cleaning up the beer bottles or making dinner for themselves and dad or the family or whoever. But there's a parentification that takes place, which is very, very lonely. That experience is deeply lonely because there's no one taking care of you. So not only are you not being taken care of, but you are also becoming the parent in many circumstances. And that can be confusing because it's all you've ever known. You don't know what it's like to even be taken care of. Right.
Jason Lange: Attuned to something we've seen in our. Definitely in our clients.
Jason Lange: Yeah, and you know, I remember who you're talking about. And part of his journey was us even getting that awareness to open up of like, wow, that sounds really hard. He had just totally normalized that. He basically parented himself from like 7 years old, like making food, getting himself home from school. And you know, it like took a while for him to even open to like, wow. That really was not normal in the sense of I was kind of robbed of a childhood and his nervous system wasn't at all conditioned to know how to receive. Yeah, right. So there was like. It just wasn't an open channel. And something that, you know, did start to change as we saw his, his, his trajectory of growth of like that awareness around that. You know, I think another thing I want to mention, particularly about the, the, the emotional neglect that I think I've seen sometimes in some of our clients that I think is related sometimes to the nice guy syndrome, that that can show up is sometimes when there's an absent father, whether it absent or emotionally absent, like the. As sons, we won't have that pivot of like the natural and appropriate moving away from mom to dad that that tends, does tend to happen, you know, around that age of puberty of like, there's a little bit more distance with mom and there's kind of more energy going into dad at that point. But if he's not there to go to that, like, that move can be interrupted and we can stay a little hyper enmeshed with, with our mother, with the women in our lives. And we don't really know a way out of that because we've never experienced another way of like, yeah, what is that masculine, you know, love or connection or compassion look like. So it's not the case with all men, but definitely one I've seen show up with some guys where they kind of never left the mother because they had no father to go to.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really good point because again, in many cultures, like you said, there's often a shift. I mean, many cultures all around the globe, there's a shift right around 12 or 13 where girls and boys. And again, this is pretty binary we're not talking about, it's not very inclusive of non binary people, to name that explicitly. Although some cultures did have two spirit and there was more acceptance and awareness of that. But there was often a sort of. Boys now learn how to become men by going out with the men of the tribe. So they start to learn, they get apprenticed or they start to learn how to fish or hunt or do whatever the tribe is doing with the men. They're going out with the group of men a lot, right? Daily, all the time. There's a lot of time spent in the presence of the men of the tribe. And same for the, for the girls learning to become women. And that again, also totally missing, you know, to your point there, we work with lots of men who either dad was just gone a lot or dad was emotionally absent to the point where it was like, I don't really want to spend time with that guy. And he obviously doesn't want to spend time with me. He's not inviting me to go places or teaching me how to do things or making plans, you know, guiding me. And he's kind of distant and he can be kind of mean or just dull, you know, sort of like there's not a lot of energy there. There's not, there's not a lot happening. So of course I'm going to go towards mom, right? There's, there's energy, there's aliveness, there's things happening. I feel like I get attention, I get love, I get grace, I get, you know, that's normal. And again, it's not noticeable. It's not something that necessarily the man notices, but he definitely notices later on when he's, you know, drawing volatile women into his life or not having success with relationship. It's like, why isn't this part of my life working? I don't understand why my relationships don't work. There's a, there's a tie in here.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. And you know, it brings to mind another subset of emotional neglect we were kind of talking about, which we've definitely seen show up in clients of like, there's no emotional connection. And instead there, there is a type of presence from the dad, but it's more kind of like a nitpicky slash. Everything's got to be high achiever. Like there's a way you need to go in life and if you're not on, on track with that, you're in trouble. Right. So there, there is kind of a lot of involvement. And the number one thing oftentimes as I've Talked to those guys they were missing was like, any kind of curiosity from their father about what they wanted or what they were experiencing or what they were feeling. And instead, it's like they get kind of, as kids, swept into this trajectory of what, you know, dad thinks the family and what I should be and do, and there's a right way to be, and it's his thing. And, you know, they can end up getting hyper involved in sports or certain activities that just are not at all their actual core. And that set these through incredibly high standards that are then impossible to live up to. That has really, really damaged some of the men we've worked with.
Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. Yeah, perfectionism. So you will be accepted, you will be loved in this family if you become an engineer or you become a physician or you get straight A's and you excel at any sport that you participate in. And here are the sports that are acceptable to participate in, and here are the ones that are not. And I'm not going to ask you what you want to do. Maybe you want to do theater, maybe you want to do badminton. But there, you know, as you said, there's not. There isn't that sense of, who are you? I'm coaxing you out. I'm teaching you how to learn about yourself. I'm helping you understand who you are. Instead, it's, I'm telling you who you have to be in order to earn love. And if you aren't these things and you don't do these things, you aren't deserving of love. And a lot of those men end up with, you know, a core belief around I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy of love. I'm. Or I'm just not worthy at all. Like, I'm worthless. And again, I want to reiterate, this is not a death sentence. This is. This is how your whole life is going to be. But understanding where these core beliefs come from is extremely helpful. It's really helpful to shed light on this because this, it can be an invisible thing of not tying things back to their origin and then being able to challenge them. I want to briefly touch on the last archetype, which is volatility. Dad was around, or dad was around sometimes. And when dad was around, he was angry again, can tie into alcoholism, it depends on. Or drug addiction or whatever it was. But this is, yes, dad was there. And sometimes when dad was there, things were a lot worse. And it was scary and dad had outbursts. And this isn't just at the kids this is often what we hear from clients is dad was angry at mom or the people, other adults that were around, often mom, though. And that was terrifying. That was absolutely petrifying. And that that energy of unconscious rage directed at someone who's smaller is terrifying. You know, Post traumatic stress disorder is well documented that people who witness stressful events, people who witness traumatic events can also get post traumatic stress syndrome. So that you can have post traumatic stress disorder, whether you were the one who was, you know, screamed at or yelled at, or you were witnessing that event. So the effect in your nervous system is overwhelm. Right. You. Many people, especially children, will go into a state of freeze because they don't know what else to do. Their body is just shutting that down. So that might look like escape. It might look like running into the closet, hiding in a corner, hiding under the bed, just going catatonic. Can you say a little bit more about this one? Because we've definitely had clients where this was part of. This was part of dad. And from what I've observed, I'm curious about your experience as well. A lot of these men grow up not wanting to be Dad. I don't want to be that. I don't want to be that. And so they cut themselves off from their power, and they don't get angry. They've sort of cut off that power center of healthy anger because the only anger they really saw was out of control.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I think the. This version is a good example of oftentimes the two moves men make are towards or away from. A lot of the guys we work with will do the move away from this. Right. So one strategy towards dad or away from dad. Yeah, like replicating that energy. Right. So the guys we tend to work with are more away from. So I don't want to be that. And so there's a tendency to kind of be small, to hold things in, oftentimes to just not reveal anything. So expression I've noticed for some of these guys can be really hard, because any kind of expression with a volatile dad is ammo that he may attack you. Right. Physically, emotionally, whatever that might be. So there's like, I don't want to give any signal, right. It's like, literally, I want to freeze so he forgets I'm there. And that. That. That, like, freeze response can be physical. But I've really seen even just in terms of expression, of just like, I can't show any emotion or any cards because I don't want to give them that.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. And, you know, to just kind of underline this even more oftentimes, and this is something I've seen, but to even a less extent. I mean, it wasn't as intense for me growing up, but, you know, I saw a version of angry energy that doesn't really lead to anything productive. And then like a tendency to cut myself off from that because, like, what's the point, right? I've seen what that does. And definitely a lot of men we've worked with who have just kind of cut themselves off from. From that anger, which can be actually a really necessary and healthy thing when it comes to setting boundaries. So kind of reconnecting that. You know, there's a. There's another variation of this that just came to mind that we also see. And it might not necessarily be like an aggro dad in terms of violence or anger, but there's like a. A similar thread to this with like a dad who was maybe a womanizer, so a dad who was in relationship, you know, married, but was so clearly going out and having an affairs, sometimes consciously in front of the family, sometimes not. And as a result of that, the men totally cut off from all good. Right. All their sexual energy and not wanting to be like dad, right. So there's. It's like the last place they want to go with a woman they're interested in, which is another version of that, like kind of moving away from. And. And then sometimes, you know, we don't work with these men so much. We have sometimes. But there can be the going towards where, you know, it's very easy if you're someone raised in a volatile household to perpetuate that later on, because at some point you get big enough, you can like hit dad back or you can push back, right? And then that's kind of in your nervous system and you can Perpetuate it by kind of falling prey into that as well. So that the agro dads can you know, really be so, just destructive in so many ways to the health of kids. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And you, you know, you've done a lot of men's work at this point and I think if you could just speak briefly to that experience of reclaiming healthy anger, because I feel like a lot of both conscious women's work and conscious men's work, conscious humans work, really is about reclaiming healthy anger because so many of us have seen unhealthy expressions of anger. And what, what are some examples that you've seen in men's work of reclaiming healthy anger?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think what it, you know, tends to come down to and you know, guys take note when you can have access to this, it's actually a deeply attractive thing. And you know, a healthy version I would say is like open hearted anger. It's all that energy is there, but my heart is open and it's not like just like a live wire destroying everything around it. It's just an energy source that I'm in touch with, but I'm not also overtaken by, in the moment. And that's like a real capacity, you know, we have to kind of learn to cultivate in ourselves to keep our heart open and stay firmly connected to that anger. Which, you know, my Zen teacher, I think I've maybe mentioned before, I just changed my life when he just reframed. Anger for me is like, you know, clean, healthy, open hearted anger is just deep caring, means you really, really care. Which is a whole different thing from what most of us see, particularly in the agro dad situation of aggression, which is I have this kind of energy in my body, I don't know how to handle it. And so I direct it out, I like spew it out and take it out of my environment or I take it out on other people and it can be very damaging. So, you know, I've had to learn to do this work, you know, in front of another man who, who's giving me feedback on like that's too much, that's too little right there. I can feel your heart. I can't feel your heart right there. That's scary. Like to actually help me tune into what it means to, to be present to this energy and to still be open and connected to the person I'm with and to just learn to hold that energy in my body. And you know, one of the areas that's one, frankly one of the best training grounds for accessing this often is in relationship to our dads and, you know, sometimes our moms. But getting to work out some of the. The withholds or the anger or the resentments from, you know, what our parents weren't able to give us, you know, and obviously sometimes they've also given us good stuff. But there's something about connecting that wire back that it's like. It's okay for me to be mad. It's okay for me to be upset that I didn't get this thing. Doesn't make them, you know, horrible person. Doesn't make me a horrible person. But it's true. It had an impact. You know, it had an impact d. That this happened and getting to play that out in front of other men. And literally, it's like, you know, sometimes it's like hooking up another battery, like, to. To see it happen in a guy when suddenly that, like, root chakra comes back online and, like, the breath deepens and there's just like a solid landing into the earth, into their bodies in that moment, and a tremendous release of energy. Often, I see. And, you know, when it's done in the right container, that energy is matched with just a tremendous amount of, like, openness and just deep, like, I'm here. I'm really here. And so it's. It's learning to actually embrace that energy and distinguish, as we teach our guys, between anger and aggression. That anger usually means you really care. Like. Like, right, like I said, or that some kind of boundary has been crossed. And if you want to be an impactful, you know, masculine leader, you have to be able to access that, you know, for your sake, for the sake of your loved ones. Doesn't mean you have to, you know, become a martial artist or something, but you have to know how to touch that energy. And in some ways, you know, the simplest version of this, I sometimes work with guys is just like. Is, you know, no. Or back off. You know, those are two versions we've played with before in workshops of just, like, setting a boundary of, like, no. Or, you know, whatever that energy is. That's just saying this isn't okay, and I'm standing up for something more right now.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's like the. That protector can go for self as well. So that's another area, you know, seeing the. Seeing that vitality come back of, like, I'm not okay with you treating me like that. I don't deserve to be treated like this, you know, or whatever that boundary is like, even when it's from protection of self, oftentimes voicing something that, you know, we weren't able to voice when we were young because of our situations. But it, like, brings back a certain kind of dignity. I've seen in men, I've just like, yeah, no, I. I can stand head tall and like, this is not okay. And here's your options, right? You can do that or this is over.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a great point. I remember a guy friend of mine talking about a relationship he was in, and they were in a group and she said something about him. And I don't remember what it was, but she said something about him that really didn't sit right. It felt bad. It was either the way she said it, maybe it was kind of passive aggressive or poking or prodding or just didn't feel good. And I think the aggressive response is in that moment to say, what are you talking about? Or to somehow shame her or put her down or get angry in her face kind of thing. He didn't do that. He also didn't brush it under the rug. He didn't pretend it didn't happen. He didn't sort of think it was his fault or just go along in the car ride and think like, well, I guess I deserve to be treated that way. He waited for the conversation to be over in the group. He took her aside and he said, I'm not okay with you saying things like that about me, especially in front of other people. That's what he said. And they had a conversation from there. But it's a good. It's a good example of it doesn't have to look like the models that you've seen. And I think that's the whole point of this episode, right? Is the father figure that you got doesn't have to be the father figure that you stick with. And finding healthy role models is worth it. Because if you've never seen that model, you're like, I didn't even know you could do that. I didn't know you could wait for the conversation to be over, draw the person aside and say, I didn't like that. I did not appreciate that. I don't want you to speak to me like that. Let's find another way to do this. If you've never known that that was even possible, then how could you expect yourself to do it? So I think this good transition point into sort of quote, unquote solution or ways to recover from the father wound. One of them is find healthy male role models that you are involved with. So not just ones that you can kind of like look at or see from a distance, but that you can be around, that you have a transmission of in real life. And I think that you know your. I think your story of being on the river with your men is a great example of. You did a lot of work to get to the point where you were at a men's retreat with trustable men that knew you and loved you, where you felt safe to share something like that with them and they received you. You had already done work to that point to get yourself around men that I think are in a way a transmission of the healthy masculine. You know, I look at you and your, your men and I see men that are reflecting greatness to each other. Maybe you're not all great all the time or in all the same moments, but you are providing a transmission of the healthy masculine to each other. Can you say a little bit about how you, how you got there in terms of your own journey?
Jason Lange: Yeah, the, you know, thing, thing I, I feel like I repeat to no end on here, but, you know, men's groups and men's work were my introduction really to that and where I got onboarded. And you know, I viscerally remember one of the first experiences I had with a man who facilitated, you know, a very deep experience for me. And it just struck me like I was literally just walking, watching him across the room and I was like, oh, that's. That's how I want to be when I'm old. Like, that's. I want to have, I want to like stand like him, talk like him, breathe like him. And it was just such, such a visceral thing of like, wow, that's a model of like a direction I really want to move in my life. And I saw him, you know, handle conflict in a group masterfully and, you know, do things I'd never seen a man do before. And that gave me like an imprint on what was possible in a direction I could grow. That, you know, ideally our early caregivers can do. But like we said, you don't always get that, but you can get these imprints from other places. And for me it was really men's group and men's work. And one of the reasons, I think that, you know, it's like in some sense it's exploding right now. Like there's more, more available men's work than certainly when I started. And it's like going up every week in some sense. And I think part of why is because we are missing that like, cross generational chance for men to connect. And we see it in our groups and I've experienced it firsthand in my groups of like, how deeply relaxing it can be when I'm like in some kind of crisis in like, you know, I'm just being someone's holding presence for me that has just been through a lot of crisis. It might not even be the same thing. Right. They're just, they have lived and suffered and celebrated a lot along the way. And there's like a depth to that and a willingness to just be present in that, that and, and then like often a fountain of experiences they can, you know, kind of reach into, to share from that can be just so soothing and so helpful from time to time. And, you know, outside of men's work, like, I don't know where you get that these days. Like, you know, men, how often do you hang out with a man in his 50s, 60s, or 70s, you know, depending on your age? Probably not that often. And then even for older guys we see or I work with, you know, sometimes it's the younger kids that can give them something. Right? Like a certain type of vitality or energy or understanding or just reframing of the current moment. And there's just so much, so much collaboration that can happen across the, the generations. So it's, there's, there's not a huge shortcut other than you got to spend time with healthy men. The good news is you can get a lot of those nutrients this day more than ever. Even if it's just virtual, even over zoom, even connecting, you know, in, in these kind of virtual video chat spaces. It's even better when you can then combine that in, in person and really kind of get that tangible sync entrainment of nervous systems that can just happen when you're around men like that. And that's kind of the key where, you know, I, I think that's one of the main things we're doing in, in all the men's work and men's groups I do and how we lead our men is we're just offering some reparenting. You know, we're just trying to give them a few of those nutrients that they didn't get early on that suddenly work their way in. And it's like, yeah, it's like that missing battery kind of comes online and there's some more energy, there's some more vitality and some more willingness to just take risk and be bold.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of limitations to talk therapy, but I have spoken to both men and women who have reported that a really good talk therapist, I think has played that role for them in a part of their journey of being healthy mom or healthy dad of just a stable, secure nervous system. Right. You Don't. You don't have to take care of them. They are taking care of themselves right there. That's already different for some people. And they care about you. They care about you. They're listening to you. You feel loved by them. Sometimes people will come to me in a moment of. I don't know if I should still be with this talk therapist. For some reason in the last year I've had many folks coming to me and I'm not sure. And my first question is always, do you feel loved? Do you feel loved by your therapist? If you don't feel loved by your therapist, you're not going to get as much out of therapy. But I have found, and this dates all the way back to when I would work with survivors of sexual abuse, of childhood sexual abuse, that for many of them, that was the. One of the first parts of their journey was just having a safe and sane talk therapist that they felt they could be themselves around and just be around a healthy adult. So I think that's another place that you can get some of this re parenting. I also think that as we've discussed many times, there are limitations to talk therapy. So I don't think it's the only thing that's needed. But it can be helpful, especially in what we're talking about here of just get around someone who you respect, who you trust, who you can be yourself with. Who is a transmission of the healthy masculine. I really liked what you said there about. Yeah, just looking across the room and saying, I want to be like that. I want to be like that when I grow up. You know, totally something inspiring about that. And it gives us a place to model off of. You know, I. I'm Jewish myself, but that what would Jesus do? There is a certain value to that, whether it's Jesus or someone else, but just having a role model to think of as, you know, it doesn't matter who it is, but someone that you. That you like, that you value, that you respect. I think Van Jones, for example, is a great transmission of the healthy masculine. A lot of care, a lot of patience, a lot of love, a lot of discipline. You know, focus on justice and what's right and what's going to work and. And inclusion and just there are men like that. They are around. You know, we talk about that sometimes in our group of just who are some other transmissions of the healthy masculine? I really like Dwayne Johnson, the way he. Relationship, the way he talks about his family. How, how. Yeah, again, inclusive and just trustworthy. He is as A, as a human being, what he stands for. And yeah, just, you know, being in a situation thinking, what would, what would that man do here? And not knowing is okay. It's not like you have to know all the time. But there is something really important about having a vision of where you want to go and then getting yourself around people that are involved in that, that kind of transmit that.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think it just strikes me one of the ways I can phrase this in terms of what to look for in healthy men or healthy masculine leaders is I, I think healthy men, healthy masculine, you know, what we're hoping will be this kind of new generation of father figures, literal or figurative, it's like, it's. It's like spreading dignity. They actually help bring dignity to everyone they're with. Like, hey, it's okay, you don't know that. Or hey, I've been there too. Like, you're not alone in that. Or hey, no, it's not okay for her to talk to you like that. Like, you know, we, we need to seriously help you work that out. But there's a way, like, you know, the healthy masculine, like, in a cheesy way, it, like, you know, puffs up our chest a little bit. It's like, it's okay to be you. Like, it's okay to take, take some pride in you, flaws and all. And one of the best ways we see that is by that man itself, himself often doing that. Hey, here's where I'm not perfect. Here's where I'm still learning. Here's where I'm getting help and it's like, oh, that's okay. That guy's kick ass and he's still working on stuff. So I could still be working on stuff and keep my chin up.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, I love that. So as we start to wrap up here, is there anything else that you would want to share with a man who's sort of nodding along and saying, yeah, I think I've got that father one thing going on. Is there anything else that you would suggest as someone who's been on that slash is on that journey? Him?
Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, there was a little fear for me when I first started doing this work because I wasn't conditioned to feeling close and open and safe with the masculine. But man, am I glad I did. The journey of my life has been immeasurably better through the. The highs and the lows because of just the incredible quality I've met around me that allow me to stay somewhat more regulated and grounded, which then grounds and Regulates my family and so on and so forth. So, you know, don't wait. Trust your intuition. Reach out to a man, you know, if you want to connect with him or find a men's group or reach out to us, and you can step on that journey and start to rework that energy to get that healthy, masculine now. And, you know, to be frank, like, we need you to do it. Like the world really needs that. I would argue very heavily right now, like, we really need men stepping forward to ask for help, to be able to show up with. With this father energy. Right. How much? How much, how much could our world right now use? A hell of a lot more of. Let's figure this out together.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And an image is coming to me, a vivid image from. From your wedding where your best man was standing behind you and he had his hand on your back, and he was looking at Violet, at your woman, and he said, while you've got her, we've got you. And there was such a power to that of how much you would be able to show up for her and like you said, for your family, because you were held, because you had that brotherhood at your back, fatherhood brotherhood, healthy masculine energy at your back that you knew you could lean into, that was. That would help prop you up if you needed it. So I agree that everything would be different if men felt more connected, more grounded, and more inclusive, which I think happens more frequently when we feel held ourselves. If you are interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Menu training and take our free training if you'd like to go deeper than the podcast and learn a little bit more about what it is we do and who we work with and all that. And I think we'll wrap it here.
Jason Lange: Take care.
