205: So an introvert and an extrovert walk into a bar… | Dear Men

Jason Lange: And the fact that yes, sometimes I just needed to be a home alone and not be in relationship at all. And creating those kind of moments for myself has become really critical for my ongoing health and well being.

Melanie Curtin: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode. I am happy to have my co coach extraordinaire here with me again. Jason Lange, thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Good to be back.

Melanie Curtin: We are talking about introverts and extroverts today and this is a topic close to my heart. I am a strong extrovert with a lot of introverted loved ones and have some experience in this area. So interested in this conversation and part of my intention for this is to really raise awareness about what it means to be an introvert or an extrovert and what kind of relational needs go along with that. Right. What do we need in romantic relationship as well as friendships? But really our focus is romantic relationship with respect to those. So real quick, before we start officially, I think I just want to ask you, Jason, about what your impression of what it means to be an introvert or an extrovert is. Because I have a sort of specific lens and I think that we need to discuss that because people mean different things when they use these two words. Sort of the way that masculine and feminine comes along with a lot of things. I think the words introvert and extrovert come along with a lot of things. So what is your impression of what it means to be an introvert or be an extrovert?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so I am a self professed introvert and tend to be more introverted in my being and how I've kind of come to experience this in myself and what I've experienced in others. So my take is just where do you recharge? So it's, it's not that either one you can't do, it's just that one is where you actually go to, to recharge. So as an introvert I can go into big parties, crowds, events and then I need time, I just, I need time to myself on the other side. Just, I just need that time. That's where I kind of regenerate, so to speak, in resource. And extroverts I know seem to kind of be the other way. Right. They'll get a little fatigued if it's just alone time and they, they need that kind of people time to, to kind of restock their, their, their energy battery, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: I love that. I think I would say similarly that for me introversion is not synonymous with being shy. So I guess I would start with what I think it's not. I think sometimes, culturally, we think we sometimes will use the word introvert as a synonym for reserved. That is not my experience. My mother was a Myers Briggs trainer, so I'm pretty well versed in Myers Briggs. And that mbti, for those that have heard the acronym, and that's a pretty strong definition in that realm, is exactly what you said, which is how do we recharge our batteries? Meaning, for example, my sister is an introvert. I am an extrovert. When we go to a party, we look the same, we're super engaging, we're gregarious, we're talking to everyone, lots of storytelling, very outgoing. Outgoing, not a wallflower. My sister is not a wallflower. Now after that, like you said, she's gonna need some alone time. She's probably gonna be tired. Whereas I'm. I'm ready to go. I'm excited, I'm energized. So I think that is a really important place to start from is that I have heard many people have sort of a judgment of themselves around being an introvert. And some of the things, things that I've heard, I think in my world are not true. It's sort of like that's not an introvert thing. That's something that our culture has placed on that. But in my experience, introverts and extroverts can be equally as gregarious, outgoing, vibrant, fun, dynamic, love people, types. And to your point, what do they need to recharge? How do they actually operate? In certain ways, which we'll get to. But I just wanted to kind of get that out of the way first because I do think that there's a lot of people who are, who really like spending time with people and consider themselves outgoing. And so they don't necessarily identify as introverts, that that might be introverts. The other needs might line up on the other side of that. So part of what I think is great about this conversation is I'm a strong extrovert and I experience you as a pretty strong introvert. So I think we have a lot of experience ourselves in this realm. And again, I think that self awareness and awareness of our partners and their actual needs can really smooth the way because I think there's a lot of kind of, I don't know if I'd say misunderstandings, but there's a lot of angst that doesn't need to be present in some relationships that is present because of these needs. And that's something that we're going to Speak to. So I'm curious to hear from you a little bit of. Can you share a little bit about your own journey of kind of owning your own introvertedness? Was there a point when you were younger when you didn't really know what your needs were? What are they in relationship and how have they. You know, how have you evolved in terms of your way that you relate to them?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like a shyer person in a lot of ways, particularly in big social kind of environments. But, you know, through high school in particular, I knew. I knew how to connect with people, though, because I had a couple people I could, like, really go really deep and feel super comfortable with. And all that energy that you just spoke about can't, you know, came about from. As I got older, into college and stuff. You know, anytime we were, like, connecting around a theme or something, or like a class or studies or stuff, which I think is why I tend to be pretty passionate about certain interests as it makes it. I don't know, it just does something that makes it a little more introverted, friendly. I would say the biggest shift I've had over the years was particularly when I got into the dating scene more. So those who know I was a later bloomer, so didn't do that so much in high school, in college, really. But as I. As I left there, you know, I did notice a wanting to be more extroverted in that, you know, most of the dating stuff at that time kind of came from the pickup world. And it was all extroverted, focused about just getting out there and approaching making yourself known. And so, you know, there was a period of time where I did that, where I was out there and I was going to bars with friends and kind of doing that whole scene. And there was a point in my growth and development, though, I remember. And I've told this story to a couple of guys on our calls where I was, like, out one night, and then I actually just really checked in, and I was like, wow, I don't want to be here in, like, a loud bar. I can't hear anyone, can't really talk. I don't even really want to be drinking right now. I would actually just rather be at home. And, you know, there was a moment I fully gave myself permission for the first time where I was just like, hey, guys, I'm gonna go home. It's just. No, I'm fine. Like, you don't have to feel bad for me. I just, like, I don't want to be here right now. And then I went home and, you know, recharged. And I think that was my first experience of, oh, wow, there's a way I've kind of been trying to make myself a little different than I am. And it was, it's been relieving over the years to kind of let go of that. And you know, I remember I was super impacted. There's a book that was pretty popular, I don't know, five years ago called Quiet, which was all about introverts. And the author that she kind of talked about, she kind of listed even in like, because I'm a transformational guy, right. We're into spiritual growth and all that. She basically kind of made one of those like blind charts where she was like, all the attributes we tend to ascribe to people that are like, enlightened and really awesome and just like all extrovert can go to talk to anyone, can be really outgoing, never gets knocked over, like really confident, like. And it just hit me where I was like, wow. I've been mapping a whole judgment of myself against just extraversion of even what it means to be like a grounded present man. And as that has shifted over the years, that's where I just really started to give myself permission to kind of go into my grooves occasionally. Loud bar, sure. Way more what I like kind of small, intimate house parties. I like authentic relating events. I like going deep with a couple people. I'm happy to go to a big party, but what's going to happen for me is I'm probably going to end up talking to two or three people the whole night and be very satisfied with that and not feel like I have to be stressed working around the room or saying hi to everyone or anything like that. And so it's been me kind of feeling into my slot of what works and then knowing even at sometimes bigger, more energetic events or when I'm more out there that, yeah, I need recharge time on the other side of that, which has been so important for me and shows up, you know, has showed up in my last couple of relationships too. And you know, which we'll talk about some tensions around that soon.

Jason Lange: Certainly with my wife. I mean, I think that's a good example of she's far more likely to talk things out, and I'm far more likely. You know, I would almost think of it as, like, where's the processing happening? Like, with an introvert, it's just literally happening inside an extroverted. It's, like, happening in the relationship. And so she's a little more on that side of things where she'll, you know, process and bounce things off me. We're all. Yeah. Mostly the gears are just grinding in my head until it's like, ding. You know, like, the answer prints out. And it's like, hey, here's this thing, which can definitely lead to some tension sometimes because it's not actually the most connecting thing, particularly if it's about our relationship or decisions we're having together. And, like, I'm not actually relating in the process of coming to that. That. That can be. Be a sense of stress. And, you know, if I'm not super conscious about. So I have to invite Violet into everything. But to some extent, it's to even let her know I'm processing. It's like, she doesn't. I don't have to say the whole content. It's just like, yeah, you know, I'm working on this thing, or I'm thinking about this thing. I'm not sure yet. Like, to just name the thing I'm even working on has been a big hack, I would say, in kind of just offering a little bit of a bridge into. Okay. Like, you don't have to tell me the thoughts. We don't have to go into that necessarily. But at least I know what's going on in there to some extent. I have a clue. So that's been a pretty big and important shift for us. And those little motions go a long way for her, at least, just to feel clued into my inner world.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. Thank you for speaking to that, because I think that's what I was trying to say a little bit is I think that a potential source of tension can be an extrovert. Doesn't know a lot of the time what the hell is going on in the introverts world. I'm curious if you can give a concrete example. One that came up for me was, for example, potential holiday plans, where are we going to spend the holidays, etc. Is that something where you're like, hey, I'm thinking about this, I don't know yet. But what are some concrete examples, if you can give them, of letting her know this is something I'm thinking about? Or is it, hey, I'm considering quitting this one of the jobs that I have. I don't. I'm not ready to talk about it yet, but it's a thing I'm.

Jason Lange: Is it?

Melanie Curtin: What are some examples of actual.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say a recent one would be some shifts in negotiations in our daily schedule in terms of how we're splitting our time in childcare that, you know, she had made a request and then, you know, it's not that I just needed like a moment to think about it. It's like I needed a week to feel into it and the repercussions and how I would orient my day and all these different things that was happening. But I didn't let her know that was happening. So she got a little upset at one point because she felt a little dropped by it. Like, and you said you were going to do this thing. And I was like, actually I've been thinking about it all week and I'm very close to like having a completion just wasn't there. So that was an example of when I didn't actually name it. And the consequence of that kind of thing, of maybe it's a discussion we've had and I need some time to process it or things like that. Other things would be, yeah, you know, when I launch events or create new programs or new art projects, you know, there's just kind of letting her know this is something I'm working on. Like has been a really big thing of like, yeah, I think I'm going to do an event, you know, this summer. Don't really know when yet or any of the details. Right. Sometimes that's about as much as I can give her. But that all that grinding is happening in my head, so to speak, and it helps her to know.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great example. The one about, you know, she makes a request about something like timing and childcare and you're thinking about it. I think that's a perfect example of something that couples do need to be conscious and mindful of is the hacks. Right? The hacks of, like, what helps us here? Because I could see being in a similar circumstance of, I asked you about this a week ago and it feels like nothing's happening. It feels like, you know, you didn't. Somehow I'm not feeling heard or I'm not feeling, you know, respected around this, when really the introvert is totally thinking about it and all the processing is happening, but there's no, you know, thinking allowed. Right? Because the extrovert every day be like, yeah, sort of thinking, maybe we could do this, but I'm not sure yet. They're kind of doing it as they go along, whereas the introvert is still doing the processing, to your point. And it can smooth the way to just say, by the way, I'm still thinking about this. I heard you. I heard you on Sunday. I'm thinking about that thing you said. And what occurs to me as well is I think it's respectful and it's good for an extrovert to be mindful of. Not everyone wants to be questioned and about their thing. So, for example, I'm thinking of doing this event this summer. I don't have the details yet. Just wanted to let you know that might be all that's needed. And it's important for the extrovert to know. Whereas sometimes I think I know I can get excited and be like, oh, tell me more, like, what dates are you thinking? What do you. Who do you want to be there? And sometimes I think that can be overwhelming to the introvert because they're not. They. They don't necessarily want to talk through all of that just yet. And so having these conversations with a partner of, like, what does feel good to you? Do you want, you know, do you want me to help you kind of talk through it or not? So I think, yeah, that's just something to be mindful of. Because I think it can be quite respectful actually for the introvert to bring something and say, I don't need to. I don't need to discuss the details, just wanted to let you know. And then the extroverts just say, yeah, thanks for telling me. It doesn't need to be more than that and to respect how each person processes.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it goes a long way and it's totally possible. And I think there is a, you know, there is a kind of natural, energetic exchange or polarity that you know, can kind of happen between introverts and extroverts. That can be a positive thing. And it's just important to know, you know, you can't drag. Drag your opposite into your corner to be your way all the time. And that these little. Some of these little tips are just the little bridges that let us kind of connect over that divide, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And to have those discussions be open and ongoing is important and self awareness is important. I think that, you know, a lot of the men that we worked with have developed a lot more of their masculine power in, in our work. And some of that has been, to your point, really owning, this is who I am and these are my needs. This is, this is really who I am and these are my needs. And here's how I express those to you, right. In relationship. And instead of sort of sublimating them, right, like, oh, I don't really need that alone time. It's okay, I'll go to this event because it's important to you. No, actually understanding that you do need a night off and being able to express that is power, in my opinion. That's power. Power isn't dominance over, it's the deep knowing of your being and being able to express that and move, move in that way in the world. I think that's something that I've been really proud of. A lot of our clients around is their ability to actually start to really own who they are. And as they do that, then they're able to express it, communicate it, talk about it. But it starts with that inner knowing. And to your point, just checking in with oneself, being out and about and saying, you know what? I really don't want to be here anymore. That's my truth. I want to go home. I'm going to go home instead of, well, I should stay out because they, because they want me to or because it would be better for me or, you know, I think that, that, that what you spoke to Jason about, like, I should be out being social because that's how I'll meet someone. I, I definitely have heard some of our clients say things like that where they maybe are on the dating apps, but they're also feeling like, I kind of want to meet someone organically in person. And that requires, you know, going out. And something that we've talked about, which I think is worth mentioning is there's lots of ways to meet people and going out, you know, to the club or going out.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.

Melanie Curtin: Only one way of doing that. There are, for example, meetup groups around hiking or kayaking or, you know, stand up paddleboarding or whatever kind of thing that you want to do in your city on weekends during the day. It doesn't have to be going out to bars. I think a lot of us culturally think, like, going out means this one thing. And honestly, that's not really the best way to meet people. It's a way to meet people, but it's not necessarily the best way to meet people. Especially in terms of what you said of it's really hard to hear people. It's kind of harder to connect in a way in that kind of environment.

Jason Lange: So, yeah, and it attracts a certain kind of person, right. Like if you're an extrovert, like, I know extroverts who just love the loud energy and music and all the people, you know, a bar or scene, which is totally fine, but again, it's just kind of becoming aware of, you know, what's right for you in that, you know, one of the reasons, you know, I, I think it's so beneficial to do this work too, is it starts attracting you to other places to go out. Right. So one of the things we talk to a lot of our clients about, as you start doing this kind of work and getting into personal growth and transformation, you're going to be attracted to different spaces, which generally allow for different types of relating as well and attract different kinds of people. So, you know, as an introvert, I didn't meet my wife out at a social event, but it was a social event that was, like, really specific and mindful and thoughtful and deep. Right. So it was kind of great. It was the best of both worlds for us. So I think, yeah, it's so key what you're saying, saying of, like, you don't have to just force yourself to go out into those big environments, but part of the creativity in learning about yourself is discovering the other environments and then also just giving yourself permission to have time off. Right. One of our recent graduates, I remember one of his celebrations one week was he's a little bit more extroverted. Right. He likes going out. But even as an extrovert, he checked in with himself one day and he's like, I'm just really tired. He works really hard. He kind of has a night shift job in the care industry. And he just noticed, like, yeah, I actually think it would be better for me to stay in tonight. And he took a Saturday night and just stayed into himself. And he was so lit up and fueled by that and rested that he was able to go into his week in a different way. And I thought that was just a really interesting, interesting example even of an extroverted guy who just had to learn to, like, check in with himself and sometimes. Okay, yeah, I don't always have to be out, out, out, out. And sometimes recharging a little bit is going to let me go out even more in different. Different areas.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. Because I've also had that experience as an extrovert that I. I still need alone time. It's, you know, it's one of those polarity things of introverts need extroverted time and extroverts need introverted time. It's not that we don't, it's just the ratio of how much we need. But I know, especially when I'm processing, emotional processing, that journaling helps me and that's definitely an alone activity. Sometimes I need to just listen to an audiobook and color and not be around anyone, not be dealing with input. That's kind of something that, that comes up for me is dealing with input. Because I think a lot of my. Because I am an extrovert, I have a lot of friends, I keep in touch with a lot of people. And so any. At any point during my day, there are, I'm. There are many connections that I'm maintaining, especially on my device. Right. With different texting and voxer and everything. People from different areas of my life, different stages in a way that I do not see my introvert friends. You know, we've had discussions about it. Like, I have a lot of connections and I maintain a lot of connections and I think that's pretty consistent for a lot of extroverts. And so sometimes I just need time away from my device, from input, to just be. And that's, you know, it's not that extroverts never need that. It's just a different ratio.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And that it makes me think of one last thing that I mean, I just, I know myself as an introvert, but just going to put out there as an example too of I do like socializing and I do like being with people. Part of what I've also found is that as an introvert, like, I need transition time. So it, like, I am not the kind that it works really well for someone to just show up at my house or like call me in the middle of the day. It's not that I don't want to do that, but like I need some warning, like to kind of start to prepare for that and some kind of, I don't know, mental gear shift or something is something I've noticed. It's not that I don't want it. I'm also just a little less open to impromptu connecting, particularly in real time. If. But you can get around that by giving me a little bit of warning, like, hey man, are you around sometime this afternoon? Would it be possible? You know, then I'm like, okay, I can feel where that would slot into my day and you know, how I can rest before and after that and whatnot. So it works for me. And I do need that kind of connection. I think what you're saying about you just got to all find your own medicine and learn the right ratio for yourself is so, so key.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that transition time too, because that's something that comes up in a lot of material about couples and relating and transitioning from work to home. And I was talking to someone who identifies as an introvert and he was saying that sometimes in relationship he has felt that he had to defend his time, which. Sort of mindful of that word, defend. But particularly around transitioning from the work week to the weekend and just having an evening to himself to just, to just be right before. Lots of connection over the weekend. And especially in a kind of high connection job where you're interacting with lots of people as an introvert, you're definitely going to need some transition time there. And that's one of those things that as a couple moves through the world, moves through different ways of being. I remember an extroverted woman friend of mine, her husband was an introvert and he worked with people for a long time and then he. And then they sort of switched. Like she was working from home and he was working with people and they switched. She started working with people and he started working from home. And I think he also went down from full time to part time. And so they had this funny moment where, you know, she used to come home and he would need all this time to transition and then she would come home and he was like a puppy, totally ready to connect because he didn't have. He had had very little social time during the day. And they had to kind of figure out like, oh, you know, is that okay with her? Like how, you know, how does that work? But that there are going to be shifts in your relationship as a couple over time. And one of those has to do with like, how much connection are you getting on a daily basis through work and how much transition time do you need? Because that's real. The transition, the transition time thing is real and it doesn't even need to be that long. But 20 or 30 minutes can make all the difference in terms of the rhythm of the evening and how well it goes. Connecting Versus one person starts chattering right when the other walks through the door and they're like, they're not ready. And it's not a great, sometimes not a great scene.

Jason Lange: And that leadership can happen whether you're an extrovert or an introvert.

Melanie Curtin: That's right.

Jason Lange: That's the beautiful thing. Being able to learn the tools for that conversation will actually give you more resources to be able to get what you need, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. You know, that's just the key to stepping into these leadership positions and opening these conversations up, which are likely going to serve your partner as well, too.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And lead to intimacy, emotional and physical. I think that's an important part of. I think most of the clients that we working with, they. They're looking for that. They want closeness. They're looking for intimacy. They want. They want that with either the person they're already with or with someone they're looking for. Right. Is genuine closeness. Authentic, authentic, real closeness, not distance. So, yeah, if you are interested in going deeper than the podcast, you can take our free training at Evolutionary Men Slash Training. And you can always get me directly@dearmen podcastmail.com. Sam.