135: How being ‘disrespectful’ could help your sex life | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Like, it's okay if you're not ready for that, but I just really want you to know, like, I am into this and I am into you. Right there's that. You can feel the energy. It's not. It doesn't mean you don't want it. You know, I think that's the key, is you can still be allowed to want it, even if there's no expectation tied to it. And if you forget to be in the energy of the wanting, she's never going to feel that. And it's going to be that more flat, nice guy kind of energy.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, my journey started with I didn't even use words because I didn't even talk about it. Right. For some of our listeners, I was a late bloomer. So I didn't lose my virginity till I was 26. And up until that point, it wasn't. I would avoid conversations about sex or sexuality like the plague because there was just in that there was shame for me. So it wasn't something I really had a conversation around, truth be told. And it was something that. I think there was a parallel in some ways in my journey to becoming sexually active and discovering that part of myself that the language was similar to how I was showing up in the experience. It's kind of the only way I could put it. And what I mean by that is, you know, there was. The first times I was sexual, it was awesome, and it was great. And it was a lot for my nervous system, like, more in retrospect. Do I see this? That even in it, I was still a little numbed. Like, I wasn't really quite in it as much as, you know, I am now with a trusting, loving partner, which meant, you know, I didn't really quite have access to all the pleasure that was possible at that time. So there was like, a. Particularly early on for me, there was a little bit of kind of numbness. And I think that just kind of showed up in the languaging at first, you know, and how I would say that is, even vocalizing, like, what I wanted or what I wanted to do in the bedroom was, like, hard for me at first. Right. It Wasn't something that was comfortable for me. But as I.

Melanie Curtin: Can you give an example of what that actually concretely sounded like? Like when you say a little bit numb, like, hey, I'd like to get together tonight, or like, what. What did it actually sound like in terms of the words?

Jason Lange: I think it was. I mean, it was that I wouldn't really use words. I think that's it. So it wouldn't be like, wow, you look hot right now. I want to have. I want to fuck you. You know, that'd be like a super blunt way of doing it, you know, to some extent. But, like, that wasn't really there. It was more, I don't know, fumbling my way into it is the only way I could kind of put it.

Melanie Curtin: Got it. So the. So the numbing was more like an absence of any words, so no real communication.

Melanie Curtin: Then. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about why that is? Why it. Because in my experience of it, it's like I don't want to be seen as a sexual beast or predator or I don't Want to be seen as just being in it for the sex. Because that would make me fill in the blank. What is the blank? What is the sort of root fear of. Then I will be seen as whatever. And then what will happen if I am seen as that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, maybe shallow, dangerous. That guy. Right. Not a good guy. Yeah, I think that, you know, like, it's kind of a weird label for it, but, like, oh, if I was. If I just wanted to have sex with someone, that must mean I'm not a good guy.

Melanie Curtin: I'm bad.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Like, there's something bad about me that the only reason I want to interact with this person right now, you know, that might not be the only reason, but a big part of my draw to this person is I would like to have sex with them.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: Like, which I actually think is a big part of what pulls people together. And when we deny that, I think it has ramifications for how we talk and the kind of softening of our language around all that. That, I think, is what you were kind of noticing, I imagine, in the languaging of these men and a discomfort for them to own that part.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think I wanted to slow that down and expose that, because Dr. Glover talks about this, and I think other psychologists do as well. The difference between toxic shame and other kinds of shame. And toxic shame is essentially, I'm bad. The belief that I am fundamentally flawed. I'm bad. And I think that when I imagine being a man and I imagine my fear of, like, if I own, like, oh, man, I would love to have sex with her, I will be seen as bad. Like, that guy's a bad guy. He's bad. And I will do everything I possibly can to cover that up or hide that or paper it over or avoid it or whatever because of toxic shame. And I think that it's important to kind of, you know, like, help realize that what we're going for in the end is an and I want to have sex with her, and I want to get to know her. I want to have sex with her, and I want to. Whatever, fill in the blank. It doesn't have to just be, I want to bang her so that I get a notch on my belt. It can also, like, sex drive is healthy. Ultimately, your sex drive is healthy. It's part of what makes you a man or a woman. But in this case, we're mostly talking about men. It's part of your power, like you said, it's part of your drive. It's part of what Pulls you towards someone. It's part of what helps you take action. Right? It's a healthy. It's a healthy drive and this sort of suppression that's happening that I have witnessed over and over, it kind of mutes a man, if that makes what I've seen repeatedly. Is it like mutes his colors? Like, he's just a bit smaller. He's not as powerful in his life. He's kind of hiding some stuff and disowning some stuff, and it's coming out sideways and in weird sort of ways. And I think an example of this is I remember having lunch or dinner or something with one of my guy friends, and I said the word fuck. And I don't remember what the context was. Like, oh, I just want to get fucked or something like that. Like, I just want to have sex. And he started, like, laughing uncontrollably. And for some, it somehow it came up. And I said, well, you know, do you not say the word fuck? Do you never say the word fuck? And he was like, no. And I basically challenged him to use it. And it's so funny because we started talking about, like, why. What is it about that word that has you so uncomfortable? And, you know, there's a lot of cultural baggage around the word fuck, which is part of why I think it's great sometimes. Because I think sort of, to your point, about cock and pussy and explicit words, I think there is a charge there. There's a lot of sort of, like, there's a lot of power kind of wrapped up in it. And I don't think it necessarily has to be bad. I don't think it's necessarily a bad word. I think it's one of those words where the energy with which you wielding it makes, makes, or breaks the use of it, right? Like, that girl could be a really sort of negative way of using it. Like, I used her, right? I used her. Like, we fucked last night. Could be. Like, it was fun. Like we fucked. Like, it was not. You know, we didn't make love. You know what I'm saying? Like, we fucked.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I want to ask you a little about what you do notice in men who are cut off from that cock energy. What? What? Because you've done thousands probably of calls with men now at this point. What do you know? I mean, do you notice this language thing and what do you notice about.

Jason Lange: I think it's, you know, one of the things I'll say is oftentimes because I mean, in some sense it's a perfect laboratory because I'm, you know, when I talk to guys about joining our program, oftentimes the first call is just over the phone. So all I have is their voice and their words. And in that I can often learn just a lot in terms of how they're talking, feeling, where their energy is. It's crazy over phone, right? But I can feel that. And I think just that language, the softer, intimate language, it tends to, I just, it's kind of, you can't see me. But it tends to live more in our heart, in our head, right? Like that type of word, that type of flowery languaging, that's it's more heart and head energy and it's not cock root energy, fuck, pussy. Like, you know, these are like charged words, they're shorter, they're like exhales, they're, they're, they're rooted energy a lot of times. So the, you know, the impact is, I think it's kind of a two way thing is if it keeps guys up in their heads and it's also a manifestation of them being in their heads. And attraction, I mean there's a type of attraction that does. Right? So I know everything, everybody can be attracted to everything. But, but most of the time the type of retraction we're talking about, it happens in our body, it happens down low. And so if we're using languaging that kind of keeps us up here and then our energy is up here. Because for some, you know, for some of us this was a journey I was on, right. It's uncomfortable to feel like, to be looking at a girl and be like, oh my God, I want to see you naked. I want to, I want to do this to you and I would do this to you and I want to do this to you. If we're not like breathed in that energy, so to speak, we're not going to want to go there. So it's kind of like clamping off that and then we're just like up here and then we wonder why, you know, Guys I've talked to and certainly me at different points, why we can't really get past a date or two. Or it's just kind of. It's not that it's, like, bad. It's like friendly. The conversation's okay, but there's just no. There's no juice, there's no charge. And then it never seems to go anywhere. I would actually say is part of the cost of not having. Even if we're not using the word fuck on a first date, having access to that and actually feeling that energy while you're in someone's presence, I think would be a big, big part of that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up, because I know this has come up several times on our calls with the men that we work with where there's this question of, like, well, how the fuck do I do that? Like, how. You know, I'm not gonna say, like, hey, I would love to fuck you on a first date. Because obviously that's not necessarily appropriate. And I think I'm bringing in the word appropriate mindfully, because I think that's another word that comes up a lot as appropriate and inappropriate. And a lot of what we talk about is it's not something you have to say. You don't have to say, I would love to fuck you. Right? That's probably a phrase or a sentence that you're going to be using once you're committed or you're dating, right? You're in a committed scenario. You've gotten a yes from. This is someone you're relating with rather than before. There's consent and things like that. But I do think that there's. To your point of embodiment, right? When you're breathing and you're feeling like, I would love to bend her over that chair right now. When you are willing to feel that in your body, when you are willing to be with that sensation of, mm, I would love to bend her over. Like, when you're right with that. Because I think what happens a lot is a man will have a thought like that and be like, like you said, shoop, gotta get. Tuck that away. Like, gotta get that away. Like, that means I'm bad, right? If I have that impulse, that means I'm bad. Sort of like overcoming sexual shame is taking the. That means I'm bad away. Or. Or even. That's a healthy part of me. That's a healthy part of me. Ah, I would love to bend her over. It doesn't mean I'm going to in that moment. It doesn't mean I'm just going to rape her, but I'm cool with. I'm right with my desire. I would love to bend over that table right now. Like, when you can sit with that and feel that, and you can feel that in your cock, in your root. Like, she's going to feel it. Even if you're on a date. Like, you're looking at her in the dress and you're like, that's a nice dress on you. Like, she's gonna feel that you didn't say anything inappropriate, but you owned your fucking desire. And that's the thing, I think that's been really exciting witnessing in our clients is seeing men kind of bringing this in a new way and sort of really getting it in their bodies of like, oh, it's not that I have to say all of this stuff. It's. I have to feel it. I get to feel it. And. And then watching them watch the response from women is exciting to me. Like, several of our men dates, and they're like, whoa, sparks. Like, it was way different. And I find that really thrilling because, again, it's not about what you're saying or not saying necessarily. It's who are you being in that moment? Are you right with your desire? Are you right with your sexuality? That's an exciting man to be around. Right? It's like, it feels really good because it's not. What feels threatening to me as a woman is I'm feeling my desire. And I don't really see you or your. No right. Instead of I'm feeling my desire. Yes, I would love to get together with you. And I'm listening to you. I'm listening to your body language. I'm listening to the words you're saying. I'm with you. I'm attuned to the signals I'm getting. It's not that I'm just going to override all that shit because I want to get what I want. There's like. That's. What's the threatening part. It's not the sexuality. It's not the desire. It's not the man's desire. That's not what's threatening. What's threatening is. I'm not listening. I don't care about your. No, I don't. I don't want to hear it. Right? Not physically, you know, in any way. I don't want to hear it. It's like, that's what feels threatening. That's what feels threatening. Not the actual physical, you know, embodiment of desire.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I just want to sort of normalize that. I do think that men receive pretty confusing programming around sexuality in our culture and many cultures around the world. I do. I really feel like there's a lot of sort of like, men are dogs, men are pigs, men only want sex, men are shitty human beings, men are fuckboys. Like there's a lot of messaging around men and shaming men for their sexuality. So this isn't something that happens in a vacuum, I guess is what I want to name here.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: The wider culture and the environment in which we grow up. You know, I'm becoming more aware of all of that, especially as I'm doing more anti racism work of things that have been hidden and unconscious bias. That's coming to the surface. And I think I'm also becoming aware of just around sexuality. What were the sort of memos we received or messaging? And I think this is one of them. And I can't name a single thing. It's in tv, it's in movies, it's in memes. It's conversations that, you know, people have on the bus. It's around. It's in the culture that men suck because all they want is sex. So then there's this sort of pushback response of, again, well, I don't want to be that guy. So I swing to the other side of the pendulum of, like, I want to be a good guy. Like, I want to be one of the good ones. I want to be respectful. I want to make sure I respect her. And there's this kind of swing that I think would be much, much more tempered if there were healthy role models for what we're talking about, of embodied masculine that's bringing cock energy and heart energy at the same time. Right. That's sort of showing up with both of those. And I'm wondering if you had any role models along your journey or if you have any now around men that you feel like are actually, you know, embodying this. And it doesn't necessarily have to be around sex, but just sort of the healthy masculine, like a man that's embodying both of these at the same time instead of just choosing one or the other.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. And I think that's another sort of like I'm remembering there. So some of my teachers are London and Justin and they, they had this teaching around women that were in long term committed relationships where both partners wanted the sex to be hotter, but especially the women wanted the sex to be hotter. They would have them wear like a white T shirt that said, please rip this off of me. Like for God's sake, rip this off of me. And to kind of help their partner, help their man access like the fuck energy, right? This is, they're in relationship and they are craving this energy from their men. This isn't like sort of to your point. It's not like you get into a relationship. And I've read multiple accounts of men who essentially lost their partners because they weren't able to access this more primal energy. And there's something deeply nourishing for the Feminine about receiving that kind of energy. Like, I want to know that you want to fuck me. I want to know that you're hot for me. I want to feel like you can't keep your hands off of me. I want to feel desired. And it's hard for me as a woman to feel desired deeply if all your brain is like, oh baby, I love you so much. This is so like you can hear in my voice. There's like this, it's in the upper registers. It's really sweet, it's romantic and there's a way that I want that. And if that's all I'm getting, there's almost a way that I feel like pushing it away. It's hard to like words, but as a woman I've noticed that sometimes it kind of like makes my skin crawl or like something feels just missing. It's hard to put into words, but it's like, like, is that all?

Jason Lange: It's a polarity thing.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's like a polarity thing.

Jason Lange: There's a polarity piece because there's like a pleasing. And I've been there, I do it like kind of a, kind of a nice pleasing, like, oh, do I have permission for us to have sex right now? Like I'd like to have sex right now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Which isn't right, doesn't like turn the turn on, so to speak, versus the like. Again, the key to this would be is the, you know, you may not get it, but just like, yeah, I'm horny, I want to fuck you. Like, you know, I'm down. Like, let's do this. Without the expectation, but owning that, like, I want this, I'm kind of having this desire right now, but versus that kind of more soft thing that I think a lot of us get to now. I actually think that skill in my experience is more important in long term relationship. Most but not all, you know, in my experience of some of the relationships I was in, that energy was more welcomed in relationship than it was early, if that makes sense.

Melanie Curtin: When you say that energy, you're talking about that energy.

Jason Lange: So like, like animal fucking energy. Like it's, it's, you know, in, in the kind of work we're trained in and help guys with, you know, men can go at it right away. The feminine nervous system often needs a little bit more safety and trust and solid container to fully open. Which sometimes comes from just a little bit more connection. Whether not it doesn't have to be commitment but a little bit more connection. Right. For that to happen. So the More a woman opens, I think the more room there is for that kind of primal energy for a man to really bring it. That can happen I think more often in some kind of deeply connected relationship than not. When it's like, I don't know who this guy, you know, earlier experiences, you don't really know what's going on. Right. A lot of times. So that would just be one thing. But yeah, having that skill. And this is something I tell all the guys that work with us. We're. Most of them are coming in to improve their dating. And I'm like, and the real thing here, man, is what we're teaching you is going to help you in your dating. But more importantly, it's going to help you keep a long term relationship thriving. Because that's where polarity is not optional. Like you and I have talked about the. There's the dopamine, Cliff. The hormones wear off, that instant insta fuck, so to speak. Energy isn't necessarily there. It has to be cultivated. Part of that has to be cultivated. Knowing how to get in touch with it in our body and bring it to help, you know, start an energetic exchange with our partner. And I absolutely know relationships that have died because that was no longer on the table.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and it's fucking edgy, right? I mean that's why it's scary to. It's. It's not easy for either partner. But you know, I'm thinking of men saying like, you look really good right now, I would love to fuck you. You know, that's scary. It's edgy. It's like, maybe I'll get rejected, maybe she'll think I'm bad. Right. It's not the whole point. Especially I think in long term relationships it's where things are edgy, that things are exciting. And the thing about the edge is that sometimes you get cut. And so there's a natural desire to not go there. But it's almost like this is what life demands of you. If you want to have a hot long term relationship, you've got to get edgy. And it's almost like there's no way around that. There's no way to stay comfortable and things to stay hot, you actually have to confront the edges and that's exciting in a way. And also confronting. Cause it's like, well, but I want to stay comfortable. I want to believe it's possible to be completely comfortable and completely connected and have hot sex. I want to, I want to.

Melanie Curtin: You think that's a really good point. Especially, I mean, since we're talking about sexual shame. Actually being shamed, I think is part of what you're pointing to, of a partner saying all you want is sex. Like it's. It's like actually hearing the words that you're so terrified of hearing and hearing them repeatedly and actually being shamed. You know what that does on top of. Yeah. And there is a way, I think sometimes that we tend to attract. When we haven't owned parts of ourselves, we tend to attract partners who will put it in our, you know, stick it in our face. Like all of our disowned parts are right there like a mirror. And it's excruciating. It can be excruciating totally.

Jason Lange: Like, like we tell our guys, wholeness attracts wholeness. So if we haven't completely done our work to integrate our sexual energy and power and on dissolve some of that shame, there's a good chance we're going to attract a partner who has maybe a block or something around it too. And that's just going to make it worse for both people. So the more you can own your desire, the more you're more likely to attract a partner who really likes to be desired and is into that exchange. Right.

Melanie Curtin: And the quicker you're going to flag. Wow, that felt terrible when she said that or when she did that. This doesn't feel good. And boundaries kick in once you've owned parts of yourself and it's like, oh, this is a red flag. I choose to exit now instead of, oh, I see that red flag. But maybe we can stay together for 10 years.

Jason Lange: Totally. It happens.

Melanie Curtin: All right, so as we're going to wrap up here, can you tell any men who are interested in learning more, where they can learn more about us and our program and et cetera, yada, yada?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Mel and I offer a fantastic short. It's about 40 minute free training. It's about five shifts to take back control of your love life. And you can watch that at Evolutionary Men Training. And if you dig that and what you learned there and you know, what Mel's been up to and what you've heard from me on this podcast, just follow the instructions at the end and you can talk and we'll see if we're a good fit to for you to join join our little tribe and program.