40: Men and purpose: what’s the deal? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: And part of how you discover what your purpose is, like I said, is just by doing a bunch of different shit.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then getting very clear of like, oh, I didn't like that. I did like that. I didn't like that. I did like that. And of all the ones I liked, there was this kind of thread.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, for me, around connection and awakening.

Melanie Curtin: All right, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This is one that I've been thinking about for a while, doing this topic because it's so important and central to the masculine and. And the feminine, as it turns out. But it's also a topic that I feel a little bit, like, torn about myself. Like, I don't. I think usually I have very strong opinions and I come down in one direction or the other and around topics that I'm not quite sure about, I tend to avoid sometimes. So just facing it head on. And I'm really curious to hear other men's responses to this or if you have any other thoughts, if you in particular around this, I would really like to hear from you. So, dearmen podcastmail.com I'm really, really interested in hearing men's personal stories around their purpose and finding it and living it and all that stuff. So please feel free to share around that. So welcome back. Jason Lange, you are a super popular guest.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back. Always such a good time. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm really glad to have you for this one because I think you're someone that I feel like I have seen living his purpose and moving closer and closer to that being in alignment with your work life. And I think sometimes we get tripped up on, like, purpose has to be my work life, but that doesn't always have to be the case. But anyways, you're someone who I feel like I've seen really, like, homing in on it and struggling with it. And you and I coach men in a men's program, and this is one of the things we cover is purpose. And so I just want to. I would love to hear more about your personal journey around it, and then we can go into some specifics about, you know, purpose and how much it's talked about in the personal growth world. For the. For the pat. For the masculine.

Jason Lange: Totally. It's a. It seems to be everywhere.

Melanie Curtin: It's a buzzword.

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, purpose is something I think about every day, all day, which I think a lot of men in some regards do, and it's a journey I'm very much still on. I can't claim to have figured it out. But I know I'm moving in the right direction, which is something we'll talk about in terms of, I think, actually what that is really all about. But I have the experience, as do a lot of the men we work with and a lot of the men that I've met in men's work and men's groups and all the spiritual worlds. I've been part of. Of a split between making money and doing something I love, which is a real pain, a real pain for a lot of humans, not just men, but a lot of humans. And it's something I still navigate day to day and have taken some big leaps around in the last year to try to bring them closer into alignment. But it is a process and it is an exploration. And, you know, part of the journey I've been on is I feel like I have tons of purposes and they don't always feel related. So, you know, since I was a kid, I've wanted to be a filmmaker. And then since I was a teenager, I was super into personal growth and transformation and consciousness and. And then I got super into computers and very good at technology and have kind of yo yoed through all these different areas of my own life. And definitely in the last couple years started to have this feeling of like, what is going on here? I feel kind of good at a lot of these things, but it doesn't really feel like it's clicked. Yeah, what am I here for? What am I doing? And what connects all this stuff and is my purpose something I'm literally going to figure out, wake up one morning and then be able to make a business plan around and spend the rest of my life doing? I'm leaning more towards. No, it's not. And that's been relieving for me in some sense.

Melanie Curtin: Tell me more about that relief. Why is that a relief?

Jason Lange: You know, there's this pressure. You know, we do a lot of work, and I've done a lot of work around David Data's work and the Way the Superior Man. You know, if you haven't read it yet, you should, and then you should not take it too seriously at the same time.

Melanie Curtin: So read Way of the Superior man and then maybe let some of it go. Or, like, don't read it as the Bible.

Jason Lange: But, you know, that book was profound and is transformative and it's been out for a couple decades now. And purpose is a huge piece of it. Huge piece of it. And as it made its ripples through different communities, there became this. There still is this obsession. I Think for a lot of men, I gotta find my purpose and I gotta live my purpose. And if I don't, I'm not living the most expressed fulfilled life I can as a man, which can actually be really stressful of, like, what's my purpose? I don't know my purpose. So let's go meditate and know my purpose. And I should be working on my purpose every day. And you know, one of my other coaches that I worked with, he helped distinguish something important for me a couple years ago that I think is part of why I'm feeling relief now in my life is the difference between like a mission statement and a purpose. Like a mission is a specific accomplishable thing, whereas a purpose is more of a direction you can move towards your entire life. And I think particularly in the David Data community, sometimes the stress comes from confusing them of like, you know, my purpose is to build a million dollar company, you know, that teaches relationship skills. Might be, might be something as simple as that. Yeah, but that's actually more of a mission because that can be accomplished and it's something you could also get bored with or you know, get into and then decide, oh, that's not my thing anymore. And so part of what I've been exploring in the, in the last year, which I discovered through one of my teachers and we work with, is thinking more of purpose as a direction, which is, I think, what's the most important piece for the masculine? Yeah, it's just having a direction, like, oh, I'm moving towards something. And another piece of that I think is I'm mastering something. I think that's a big piece for a lot of men where a lot of fulfillment does come through when you're living your purpose, so to speak. But I remember something blew my mind like three years ago, you know, David Data, purpose, all this stuff. And I cannot remember the name of the book, but I'll try to find it for the show notes. But this amazing book came out and it went through NPR and it was about this guy who interviewed people about their jobs and levels of satisfaction and it included like blue collar manual labor, farmers, this whole thing. And it was totally shocking to me in that a lot of the people that actually ended up self reporting the most satisfaction, they didn't necessarily have the biggest, loftiest, craziest goals or jobs or fancy jobs even. What they had was they mastered something, they got better at something over time and they got so good at it that, that it created more freedom and wealth for themselves and their family.

Melanie Curtin: Interesting. So you're saying, let's say that this person was an electrician. They got really, really good at it. Like, they were excellent at the craft, and they could maybe mentor other people who were coming up in the trade, or if there was a really difficult problem in a house, they would be called because they'd been doing it for 25 years, and now they were really, really good at it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And so, you know, based on all this data, what. What this. The kind of takeaway from that was just like, pick something and get really good at it. That's what's gonna lead you to the most satisfaction. Yeah. Like, you'll actually just be happy.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Versus, you know, myself and a lot of other guys who read David Data, you know, read it when they were in their early 20s, whole 20s, stressing about what's my purpose and what am I gonna do?

Melanie Curtin: What should I do with my life.

Jason Lange: Not making any money and I'm not committing to any specific thing because it might not be my true purpose. So I don't want to go all the way into that because I could be wrong. And boom, you can even feel the energy of that right there. And so kind of tying this all together in terms of where I'm at and what I've been thinking about purpose recently is that, yeah, it's mostly about having direction and feeling expressed is kind of what I think I've discovered relates to that mastery piece, like, where the actual buzz and fulfillment comes from in that, you know, in the, like, the most masculine sense. I think we're concerned with purpose for that just simple moment of, like, right before I die, will I have no regrets?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Yeah, Right. Like, what am I really providing to the world? Or what is. What is the point of me being here?

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And what I notice in the conversation a lot is this idea that there is, like, a Shangri La, like. Like, paradise point, where it's like, okay, I found it.

Jason Lange: Like, I.

Melanie Curtin: Like, when you, like, go on a quest for a big diamond, you're like, I found the diamond. Like, I found my purpose. And now I'm, like, carrying the diamond with me, and I live with my purpose now. Like, there's this illusion that at some point I will be. I will, like, find this thing, and then I'll be living with it, and it'll be like, everything will sort of be perfect, and then, like, life will really start, and then I'll really be able to do the things I want to do. And that's what I feel like. That's why I feel kind of torn It Because I'm sort of like, I feel like that's an illusion. I feel like that's an illusion. And I also feel like there's an element of truth to it in that if I look at the people in my life that have a quote unquote purpose, like, I'm thinking of a woman friend of mine who's a physician, and she is in pediatric anesthesia. So she works with very sick kids. She's trained for that her whole life, and she's now providing that service in the world. And she does get a lot of satisfaction out of it. And like you said, it also involves mastery. You know, like, residency was really hard for her when she was going through learning those skills. Like, it sucked. I mean, she was like, depressed. Like, it was not good. You know what I'm saying? Like, real bad. But she stuck with it. And it does feel now like she gets to express that in the world and feel like she's helping people. Because that's the part for me that I notice in the conversation, is I think for a lot of people, myself included, I have very much in the past made my purpose about me. Like, what is my purpose? Like, even in the phrasing of it, like, what is my purpose is about me? Like, my ego is involved versus, like, where am I? What am I? What is the world calling me to do? Like, what is life calling me to do?

Jason Lange: What is.

Melanie Curtin: What is. What are the signals I'm getting? Like, what am I called to do? How am I called to serve? Which is kind of different than what is my purpose?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy just how much I'm remembering in terms of purpose another. Another way a guy I worked with once put it to me that I think speaks to that, which is less about discovering this mythical thing was just like, where do your greatest gifts meet the world's greatest needs? It's like, literally a meeting of kind of heaven and earth. Because, you know, part of what I've had to deal with is, wow, I might want to do something, but I might be totally ignoring a lot of natural talents. I have gifts I have. And, like, what's up with that? You know? So someone's a really good musician or something, and they're slaving away at being an artist. Like, it happens. It totally happens. And I think that's part of what I've been sinking into is feeling into the energetics of it all of just, like, where do I naturally put my attention anyway? Anywhere. And where do I, like, find the most energy and then As I do that, it becomes clear, like, oh, these are the kind of situations I want to be in. And these are the kind of places I feel lit up.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: What's really going on in those moments. And then that tends to. Has started to aggregate into kind of bigger feelings for me in terms of. Oh, okay. So I think it's less about one specific thing, like a mission, like I was talking about. And for me, yeah. As I'm sitting with this and exploring a lot of this in real time with you, I think for purpose to me comes down to direction, expression, and mastery. If those three things are happening, I feel like I'm on purpose.

Melanie Curtin: And can you say more in terms of direction? Because I think, like, some things I observe about you, for example, you care about other people's transformation. You care about supporting other people's transformation. You care about other people waking up, especially men. Like, you care about supporting men and waking up. So you lead local men's groups in the LA area. You're a facilitator for authentic Los Angeles, like personal growth, like connection workshops. You run Pillars of Presence, which is a more substantial program for men that really want to wake up and become great at life. And with women, you do a lot of different things, but the direction is I help other people wake up. Is that what you mean about a direction? Ish. And then the how of what you're doing, like, varies.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah, totally. So that's like the direction piece. You know, we work with this in our program, and I learned it from one of my teachers, John Wineland, and I think it's based off a coach's work called Michael Neal. And it's called the Impossible Goal. And the idea is to find something so big, like a type of impact in the world, and it's not even big in sense of scale, but, like, I guess it's. Sorry, it's not that it's big, it's that it's impossible. You can't actually do it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Which relieves you, us men, from the, am I winning or losing at this?

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: And it becomes more, oh, I'm moving towards it, and I can't actually get there. So that's all that matters. Am I moving towards it? And so that direction piece to me fits into that. And so, you know, my. My version of this that's become clear over the last year. And, you know, the. The phrasing changes, the words change, but the energy of it has beginning clearer and clearer for me of, like, what I'm here to do is wake up and connect people by training warriors of the heart, men and women. And that's like, I could spend the rest of my life doing that. And what I love about that is, you know, I specifically set it to be like a billion, which is kind of impossible. It's like, I'm not actually gonna be able to train a billion warriors of the heart to wake up and connect the planet. But it gives me a direction and a feeling of, oh, am I moving towards that? And suddenly I have this umbrella direction that all these other things I'm using to express myself and get mastery in, feed into. So for me, in. In. In that direction, that impossible goal, suddenly everything fits. Being a facilitator of authentic relating work, being deep into men's work, podcasting and creating films, like, actually creating art that transmit a certain type of consciousness or emotional experience, Those are all ways to wake up and connect people. So for me, it's like starting to click into place, and then it. It actually relaxes me in the sense of how I'm specifically doing that at any point in time could change.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So, yeah, I might be. You know, this last year has been a lot about facilitating and leading men's work and leading our program and just going in deep into that. And three or four years from now, I may be like, oh, I feel really complete in terms of the doing that. Yeah. Like, I feel like I've really given in that sense and I want to pass it off to someone else. And then suddenly I may discover that, wow, to do that. No, I actually want to create a physical space, you know, here in la, where people can come and get trainings or, you know, so the point being, those little missions can change over time.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But that overall direction of. Is what I'm doing, moving me closer to that becomes really important.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm wondering, so you're in your 30s now, and I'm wondering, can you speak a little bit to the feeling that you had when you were, let's say, in your 20s, before, quote, unquote, figuring this out? Because, I mean, at some point you did the impossible goal exercise, and you were like, I'm gonna train a billion warriors of the heart. And it gave you a sense of direction. There's still a lot of pain and suffering around, like, moving in that direction. But I'm wondering, like, for you, what did it feel like being the masculine that's totally wandering, like, truly wandering around, like, just wandering around, watching Netflix and video games, smoking pot, like, you know, working a job that you don't care about. Or whatever version of that. Like, really not awake. Like, what was that? Like, versus now? Because they both have challenges.

Jason Lange: You know, I would say what I got out of the kind of wanderings of my 20s, so to speak, I actually think is developmentally super appropriate. And what I mean by that is, I think. And this is just coming to me right now, but I think there's a pretty strong argument, certainly in my own life and probably in a lot of men's life and a lot of people's life to be made, that you can't truly know your purpose, so to speak, in the way we're talking about until you know yourself. And you can't actually know yourself until you've tried some shit.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, you got to try things out. You got to experiment.

Jason Lange: You got to, like, kind of just. And, like, really try it in the sense of, like, push your edge, go in deep and play full out in that realm and then move on, like, when the energy is no longer there. And that. That was a rhythm. You know, looking back, I had in my 20s, where, you know, I had a couple different careers and jobs where I would go really hard and really long. You know, one of my first ones was being a caregiver for teenagers with autism. So I spent about two years working, you know, 60 hours a week on the ground level with teenagers and learning so much about myself, like, what it means to hold space, what it means to come in somewhere with my own shit and have that reflected back to me and, you know, and the ability to, like, okay, I can put my stuff aside and come in and support and serve and care and tremendous amounts of patience and just like, wow, the very different ways people communicate in love. Like, I learned so much from those kids, and I actually liked the job. It was stressful at times, for sure, and it was exhausting. But while I was there, I was like, this is meaningful. I don't think this is my life purpose, but I am learning about myself in this experience. Even back then, I kind of had a sense of that and about connection.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, totally about connection.

Jason Lange: And then there was a point, though, where I was like, wow, I'm done. It just became very clear. I was like, I'm done. Like, I've.

Melanie Curtin: The energy is.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I feel complete here. And then I moved on to another thing, and then I was working in the tech world and doing tech support for, like, two or three years again. Same thing, just in super deep. Learning to manage people's experience in some sense over the phone and how to communicate super clearly was a big One and how to just analytically walk someone through something when they're on the other side of the country. And they're often very frustrated.

Melanie Curtin: They're super frustrated. I think that's a really good example of a job where I think we sort of write it off like, oh, tech support, whatever. You know, it's sort of like over here on the side versus, like teaching disabled children. But actually, like, when someone's really stressed out and freaked out about their machine. And like, I'm a writer. My whole life is my laptop. Like, I need my machine for my livelihood. It's how I survive. So when there's something wrong or I can't figure it out or I'm worried about losing all the data on it, it actually really matters that I have someone on the other end of the phone that I feel like cares. Like, they might not know me as a person, but I at least want to feel like they actually care. Like, that's going to calm my nervous system down at a time that it's pretty high. So I feel like that's a good example of one of those jobs where you could do that job in a way that you don't care at all. Or you can do that job in a way that, like, I help people relax. The way I help relax is I do tech support right now, or whatever it is. I help people. That's my purpose right now. It's expressing through this. But like, think of the attitude difference that you'd have in that job in that way. That's like, that is a real service to people like that. That's honestly like having a good tech support person when you really need one. Like, people feel vulnerable around that stuff. They don't know how to do it.

Jason Lange: They feel stupid.

Melanie Curtin: They've been Googling it. It's not working. And just, you know, quick help tip. Really tech support is like, have you tried turning it off and turning it back on? It's often, if you're gonna do anything before you call tech support, just do that.

Jason Lange: You'd be shocked at how often it works. But. And there were other experiences like that. And what I'll say about those that I do think was really important and where I got maybe kind of lucky in that I didn't get too lost because, you know, I did have some jobs I went kind of deep in was I learned discipline. And just the simple thing of like, I didn't always want to be at those jobs. Yeah, I didn't always want to be answering calls. Sometimes I didn't want to have to go deal with difficult children. But I learned how to just go in and do it, like show up. I may not feel like it, but I'm going to do it. Which turns out to have served me tremendously as I now know what I want to do. And even so, sometimes I don't feel like doing it. But there's that discipline of, okay, okay, I need to be able to put I'm tired or I'm not in the mood aside and just go for it. Which has been tremendously valuable in learning a good work ethic like that. You can't skip it, I think is one thing I just discovered. And I have seen in other people and younger guys that I've worked with who haven't necessarily gone through that phase, which I feel blessed in that sense of like, sometimes you just got to do a job when you don't feel like it and it's not your deepest purpose.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But in doing that, you build the character and the discipline and the strength of will and all these tools that will serve you then as you discover what your purpose is. And part of how you discover what your purpose is, like I said, is just by doing a bunch of different shit and then getting very clear of like, I didn't like that, I did like that, I didn't like that, I did like that. And of all the ones I liked, there was this kind of thread like for me around connection and awakening, like just, you know, helping people experience the world in new ways.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm remembering actually a time in my life when I was waitressing at a sushi restaurant and I. So I have often throughout my life had several jobs, like several part time jobs rather than one full time job that's been pretty consistent. And I was working as a dating coach as one of my part time jobs. And then I was working at the sushi restaurant as another one. And I got a lot of joy and satisfaction out of the dating coaching and I felt like I was really helping people, etc. But there were elements of the sushi job that I liked too. And one of them was the camaraderie and just the teamwork. Like it's restaurant jobs are nice and that you get to like bond with people and people have all kinds of weird stories. Like there's always like some kind of drama, it's kind of exciting. Like, and I remember at one point like settling into this routine and being like, I think I need to just let go of the idea that I'm doing life wrong because there was A part of me that was like, I went to a really good school. I have very supportive parents. I should be further along. I shouldn't be in my late 20s. I can't remember how old I was. Late 20s, early 30s, I think I was late 20s working in a sushi restaurant. Like, my friends are consulting with McKinsey. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I have really high powered friends. I should be in that category. But honestly, like, part of the utility of that was some of the clients that I coached back then, like, they're married now and they have babies. So I've been doing the work that I've been doing in the realm of sex and love and relationships for, like, years now. So I can really say with authority, like, here's what I've seen with the people I've coached for 13 months. Here's what I've seen after that in the next nine to 12 months. Like, here are some things you can expect. And, like, it changes the trajectory of their whole lives. I wouldn't be able to say that if I hadn't been doing that back then. So I think there's something. Yeah, there's something important about that. And I sort of just want to, like, call out, like, what do men do who are so in that position of, like, I'm, like, doing it wrong. Like, I haven't found it yet.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm like, I'm working a sushi. Their equivalent of a sushi job, sushi restaurant. And they're like, I can't seem to figure it out. I'm sorry. Like, stressed about. Like, I should be further ahead than I am.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think that what that ties into and what your story, I think, beautifully illustrates in terms of one of the common stumbling blocks too, is immediately having to associate our deepest purpose with our means of livelihood and the extreme stress that puts on things. Absolutely. Like. Oh, right. I mean, I've experienced it firsthand. I've known countless people who experience it. Oh, my God, I want to be a coach and then go fully into coaching and then suddenly everything is riding on it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And it's very stressful.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: It takes time to build up experience and clientele and word of mouth and all that. And there can be something very liberating about. Oh, actually, I have a very stable nine to five. And then I pursue my passion and my art on the side.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, that's a totally legit means of moving forward. I think that doesn't get enough credit.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I think the important piece there Is as long as you're moving forward on something, where it becomes stifling is I have a 9 to 5 that I know I don't want to do for my whole life. And I don't have that larger direction piece figured out yet.

Melanie Curtin: And that seems to be where some of the numbing comes in.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Of like, I don't really know what the direction is and I'm. Instead of looking for it or opening myself up to experimenting. I'm gonna smoke a lot of pot.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: I'm gonna play a lot of video games. I'm gonna eat a lot of food or go to the gym a lot.

Jason Lange: Whatever.

Melanie Curtin: The numbing behavior is because I'm anxious about not knowing my direction. Like instead of leaning into that or feeling or just feeling the pain of it. Honestly, I had a lot of breakdowns before I got jobs. I don't know if that's how it works for other people, but I remember multiple times of just like freaking the fuck out in my car, crying and being like, please just send me what I'm meant to do right now. Like having the full on breakdown instead of. For me, it's like going to Netflix. Like I feel like TV is one of my numbering ones. But yeah, I'm just wondering how do you experience that in the masculine that you work with in terms of like the wandering, not knowing direction and then at least having a sense of it.

Jason Lange: Yeah, like the, the wandering can be really painful, I think. And tying it back into what we were kind of talking about, the first step, I think sometimes for a lot of people is just that, oh, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I need to get a job for the next six months just to get some stability.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So I can have some space in my life and not be so stressed out and even just telling yourself that's okay, huge, massive step and giving yourself the space of okay, I'm going to use the next six months to earn some money and then I'm going to start figuring this out then. It's really important in that time though, to not just numb out the whole time, to actually make some time every day to just get curious about what you've done with your life, where you're moving, what brings you energy and just what your passions are. Which is I think, a first step towards moving towards that and then just accepting the reality as well that you may never make money doing your deepest purpose or passion as you discover it. It's certainly possible to. But I find myself more free when I can. When I could pull those. Separate those two apart a little bit. And, you know, the. The other thing that's just coming to me as well is there tends to be an idea of purpose, having to be big things we do or accomplish in the world, you know, these impossible goals. But some of the most beautiful ones I've discovered or witnessed in other men that felt 100% true were something as simple as, I want to love my daughter perfectly.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. Yes.

Jason Lange: Which is impossible. But that is where that man feels most expressed in life.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And all of his personal growth work, his finances, his job, they all kind of move towards that. And I think that's beautiful.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And the kind of thing that sometimes gets overlooked or, you know. Yeah. Like, I want to be. I want to bring every single person who I sell a car to a moment of joy. You know, like, what a great, great type thing.

Melanie Curtin: And what a different way of looking. That's, again, kind of what I was coming back to around contribution. What a different way of getting up and looking at that job. Rather than, I want to sell 10 cars this week. Like, I want to bring people joy today. Like, my. My purpose is around providing joy. Because I think that word providing for the masculine is really important. And I hear it over and over. Maybe not that word, but the concept. Like, I'm glad you brought kids up, because I was about to. That I've heard multiple occasions where.

Jason Lange: When.

Melanie Curtin: A man has discovered that his woman is pregnant or he's gonna have a kid or he has a kid, it calls something forth in him, because now he has to provide in a different kind of way. And that then even if his job is valet parking, his purpose is, I'm providing for my family. I'm providing my family, and we don't have to wait for children to want to provide. Like, the car salesman is a good example of, I provide joy to the people that come to my store. Like, that I provide something. Like, I provide something feels like a grounding place for the masculine. And even if it has nothing to do with how you're making money, even if you work at a sushi restaurant, like, I provide a safe space for my employees. I can speak from experience. If you're a manager, I don't care whether you work at Applebee's or you work at, like, Cirque in New York City. If you come to work and you're like, I'm gonna provide a safe space to my employees. That's my purpose. We make money. We're a restaurant and everything. But, like, I provide that like not only will your employees work really hard for you, you'll get promoted faster. All of the things that you want will come, but only because your internal motivation is. Is something around service. Purpose is partly about service. That's what I've seen is like the most successful people, and I'm not talking about financially successful, but successful in terms of. I look at them and I think they really, they're having a good life. Like, they like their life. There's something about them that almost always comes back to service. There's some way that they're like, this is I provide this.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And then like you just magnetize success.

Jason Lange: It starts to bring energy towards you. And I think what's so great about that is there's always a way to do it right. As you kind of discover that it doesn't have to be some huge multinational corporation or non profit or huge art piece. Like when you kind of dial into that, it's like, oh, how can I start creating this in the moment? Or providing, providing this experience for other people. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful frame for it. And again then that's really tied more into a direction which can then manifest itself in different missions throughout your life. But it's like, oh, that's, that's where I feel the most energized, where I feel the most energy is when I'm providing that for other people. You know, there's one last thing I think I'll. That's coming to mind that has certainly resonated true for me. And I heard from our friend, our good friend Neil, who is a. Is a guy I've done some work with and is brilliant in a lot of ways that has really helped me. He was the first person and I don't know if he came up with it, where he got it from, but that, you know, for a lot of people, our deepest purpose comes from our deepest pain as well. That at some point, usually in our early lives, we have some kind of experience that makes us thirsty for something.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: That we didn't get. And then we spend our whole lives trying to get it. And the great kind of magic is the way we often get it is by providing it for other people. It's like kind of the catch 22 there. If I just try to get it for myself, not gonna work so well.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But, oh, I can create that and provide that for other people. And I can do that because I know how much it sucks to not have it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like that simple.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, you know, that experience firsthand you know, so part of why I started this program with you, I knew the experience of not being able to magnetize women and feel comfortable relating to them.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, I just knew that experience and the shame that came with it, the loneliness that came with it. And that ties into my deeper thing of just wanting to create connection, like, one which, you know, was something I struggled with as a kid as well, and that I feel the most connection when I'm creating connection for other people.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, it's just the thing I've learned.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, and it's been a big game changer for me as well.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. It reminds me of. I pulled a tarot card once that said, if you get nervous, focus on service. And it has stayed with me for years. And I find that if I'm prepping a course or if I'm getting ready for a call and I'm nervous, I find it very grounding to say, this isn't about me. This isn't about me. What's going to be the most helpful to this person or this group? Just do that. Like, just do that. And, like, the rest of it will kind of work out. Instead of like, oh, my God, is it gonna be good enough? Like, are they gonna like me? Like, those are all about me. Those are all about me and my ego. Or as if I'm like, I'm here to serve this population. Let's just do that to keep it really simple. What's the simplest way to do that? And then the rest of it will kind of work out.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: So as we wrap up, is there anything that you would recommend if there's a guy listening to this or a woman wanting to feel more on purpose or, I don't know, find their diamond?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think. I mean, you know, being such a relational junkie, I would first say, ask people. Ask people you're close to, where do they see you the most lit up and magnetized and interested in things? It's almost always noticeable to other people when we're talking about or doing something, we just have energy around. Yeah. And sometimes you might be surprised what's reflected back to you in terms of how people have experienced you and when. I would also say, you know, one part of David Data's work around this that I do agree with, that ties into the numbing, is spend time with yourself. Like, particularly for men, solitude and silence. And just don't do anything. Don't do anything.

Melanie Curtin: Don't do anything. Go out into nature, which means don't do the numbing.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Don't do the numbing yourself isn't just go get high and watch no abs.

Jason Lange: It means don't do anything like go out and meditate. Go out and walk through the woods. Spend time just in solitude. And oftentimes things will start to bubble up. It really, it kind of works. Um, but it usually comes on the other side of some kind of discomfort. Right. Something we have to push through.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Oftentimes in being alone or in solitude or voices start coming up of, oh, you're a fucking fraud, or da, da, da, da. But on the other side of that, often there's like a real like, oh, yeah, actually, it's time for this. This is what I'm. This is what I'm going to do next. Sometimes it's just that simple. But you can't really hear that signal so much these days in our just extreme. Ringing, pinging, tagging, ring, ping, notification, food plans. Craziness of like, there's always something striving for your attention in that solitude and that silence piece, I think, and just slowing down, paying attention to the nothing, which is often where that signal will come from. And then also just asking other people, like I said, or, you know, where do you see me the most lit up? Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: I really like that.

Jason Lange: I think that's a great combination. And from there I think you'll start to find that sense of direction, like, oh, I don't know exactly what it is, but I know it's this way.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then on the way you're going to try different things, some of which you'll master and some of which you won't. And then you'll also be sharing those things and expressing them and serving other people. And it's a great place.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And the one last thing I would share is just a seasons of life thing. I think we think as Americans especially, or I guess Westerners in general, we think of life as linear. Very, very linear. Like first this, then that, then this, then that. And we sort of think of, you know, we even think of friendships that way, that they're sort of like, okay, we'll be friends forever. Like, you're in my life now. But that's not really how it works. I remember a friend saying, it's not like life. People think of life as like an airplane. Like you get on an airplane and you're like, you're with those people. From Paris to la. Like, if you're on, like, that's where you're with those people. He said, that's not really how it is. It's like a train. Like, you get on with some people, some people get off, they might get on again, but you're. You're with different people in different seasons of life. And it's the same with, you know, careers, jobs, purpose, possibly, but it's much more seasons of life. What's called for in this season of life. Where do I want to go in this season instead of I'm failing again? You know, like, this career feels like it's wrapping up shit.

Jason Lange: Like, that's the. I think that ties back in. The last thing I'll share is what I love about that is the trying things and being all in on certain things, which is a shadow of a lot of men these days of. It's not my deepest thing, so I'm not going to do it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: She might not meet be my life partner, so I'm not going to date her.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But there's so much value in going in anyway and just showing up fully to the experiences that are actually available to you in life. And, you know, I think how I can sum that up, I think I did an Instagram post on this I had forgot about a couple weeks ago. That really just feels like it kind of clicks all this into place and my experience of, like, purpose isn't found, it's revealed. And it's only going to reveal itself to you if you're actually living.

Melanie Curtin: That is so perfect. Because I feel like in my life, I've said this to a couple of people, that I feel like my purpose, it's like a Polaroid that's been very, very, very, very slowly developing, like, over, like, 15 years. And I'm like. I keep flapping it and being like, well, you just. Can you just please just show me what it is?

Jason Lange: Totally. It's great.

Melanie Curtin: I think I'm closer than ever, but I'm starting to realize, like, oh, that's going to be a forever thing. It's like painting a masterpiece. It's not like you find the masterpiece. I don't know. It's like, in progress. And so, yeah, that's really good. It's not something you find, it's something that's revealed. So that's gonna wrap us up for today. Again, I would really like to hear from you, especially if you're a man around, what this brought up for you or what you've noticed in terms of your purpose and how that has impacted you. Because I really think this is an important conversation just in general. And we didn't really go into how a man feeling on purpose impacts the feminine. But maybe we'll do another part two or something, because I think this is a big enough topic that we could do that. But I would love to hear from men. In the meantime, dearmen podcastmail.com that wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you want to reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter, Earmen Podcast. That's Earmen Podcast or Facebook. We have a group Dear Men Podcast. We also have an email address, dearmen podcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast, just email us at that address, dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day.

Jason Lange: T.