There is a crisis of male loneliness, and it started long before COVID. In this episode, I chat with friend and co-facilitator Luke Adler about how deeply this impacts men, why it’s hard to make new male friendships as we age, and how transformational programs can create bonding experiences for men that last a lifetime.
Watch below, then join The Heart of Shadow Men’s Group.
Links:
- Join The Heart of Shadow Men’s Group
- Why Is It So Hard for Men to Make Close Friends?
- American Men Face a Friendship Recession
Read Full Transcript Full episode text for reading and search
Jason Lange: All right, well, I'm excited to be back here with my man Luke Adler for another episode of our respective podcasts here. And today we wanted to talk about something that just kind of came up organically through our discussions and through some of the work he and I have been leading and honestly experiencing with each other in our own lives. And that's this kind of widespread crisis right now, you could say in a lot of ways. And just overall truth, it seems that I've, I've noticed in a lot of men I work with of the fact that a lot of men these days increasingly do not have very strong friendships with other men like that. There's, there's just. They call it the friendship recession, I think, is one article that was going around the New York Times last year that said, you know, as of 2021, they pulled a bunch of people and over half of the men weren't actually satisfied the type of friendships they had. And that this number has been going up every year since 1990, that the number of, like solid friends men have has continued to decrease, like to where some men just don't have any. And I think, you know, it's now we're recording this in 2023, coming out of the COVID pandemic, which I think really accelerated this for a lot of men. I know, certainly in my practice that I was doing, which thankfully, a lot of which, what I was doing at the time was virtual. There were guys who were coming on to stuff that, you know, in the heart of the pandemic, like if they weren't on a call, they. There was like no one for them to connect to the way life was structured at that time. And so we just really wanted to talk about how we've seen this show up in our lives, our clients lives, and what we think one of the best paths forward for guys are. And I'd love to hear kind of your initial thoughts here, Luke, on, on this subject.
Luke Adler: Yeah, I. There's so much nuance to what you're describing, Jason.
Jason Lange: And it's.
Luke Adler: I think part of what's struck us both is that in our last Heart of Shadow, you know, 10 week program, we had this powerful container that led to a community, a men's group, a group of Men that have committed to staying together without your and my facilitation.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Luke Adler: And that was something we intended. But of course we can't promise that we can set the stage for it. But I think now, after having gone through the experience, it is something that we can, we can deliver on. We can, we can set it up for you to hit it out of the park, so to speak, to cultivate the conditions that are necessary for deep friendship, that can be supportive when life gets hard and life is never short of challenges. So to have a group of. Of men that you can count on, that are just right there, to be able to go deep, I guess deep even feels cliche to share. But a group of men where you can just be real with, you know, you can just be all of who you are. And that was contrasted by a trip I took with some friends recently, surfing trip. And there's a group of men who are in their 40s, 50s, and we're have families, we have careers, we're taking time away from our people, our families, our lives, to bond, to serve, to hang out. And there was a sense of, I don't know if desperation is the right word, but maybe longing to connect, to have a deeper connection with each other. And what was missing is some leadership, some. How do you do that? We're together. We've done this deliberate thing to move away from all our responsibilities for a period of time. Someone has to set the stage for a more authentic conversation. Without that container, the default is into surfing the next meal, women, whatever is kind of out there on the periphery in front of our senses to talk about. There's more to jump in there too. I don't want to keep running, but I think I'm just setting the stage. From what I see, there's not a. A system or a culture set up for men to just be authentic, be honest, real about what they're feeling, seen. If anything, there's kind of an anti culture against authenticity. And as you're pointing out, there's in some cases horrific health outcomes because of that anti culture to men being authentic and real and just, I guess, just truthful with how they feel and how they're seeing things.
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is definitely something I've seen notice I've been facilitating more and more men's groups over the last years of the default. Often for men coming in for all kinds of reasons. Right. Often because of early life, masculine culture being, you know, shaming, knocking guys down when they have a feeling or when they show a weakness or vulnerability or whatnot like that kind of locker room energy, like, severely impacts a lot of men I work with who were bullied or made fun of. And they carry that for a long time. And so there's like a having to relearn and to trust men again to be able to open up. That I've seen over and over. And there's just the, the. The kind of the good side and the bad side of this. That for a lot of men, our default, and I fall great at this all the time, is to relate, as I've once heard, via tree triangulation, meaning there's me, there's you, and then there's some third thing our attention is on and how we bond is by actually being right next to each other, but putting our attention on that thing, whether it's a sports game, talking about women, talking about cars, or like, the attention is on the activity, not so much on each other, which I think is what's revelatory oftentimes for men that come into this work of like, wow, I'm actually here with you in feeling with you and getting to go deep with you. And that does take work to cultivate that if you've never been in that space before. You know, increasingly I get guys coming to me that are aware of that they have a lack of male community in their, in their life, but they don't even know where to start. Like, they got, they got jobs, they got kids, they're busy. You know, when we're young, we tend to be working jobs where there's kind of a socialization and you go out afterwards or we're in school and you just have a lot of time to build those friendships. And, you know, one of the things that I remember hearing that always struck me of part of why those young friendships tend to, like, get so deep inside of us is one of the techniques for building closeness and connection. They've. That. That I was reading about was just unstructured downtime. So it's like literally just a certain amount of time with each other creates a type of bonding that as we get older, it gets harder and harder to do. But I just wanted to highlight before we move on to the, the health aspect here, because this is a piece of research that's been going around for a while, and I've. I've named on other things and I think we even talked about maybe last time you and I chatted of. Yeah, like they've done the studies. And for men, that self report is feeling lonely, so not having enough connection in their life. The health risks are on par with smoking and being severely obese, like, in terms of how it can actually shorten your. Your lifespan to a significant degree. And I think this is just something that we've been seeing accelerating as culture has changed. A lot of the places we used to go for community are kind of falling away. You know, social clubs. For a lot of people, religion's kind of not a thing anymore. Like, there used to be places where we would build that kind of community. That just doesn't really happen anymore as everything's kind of moved more virtual and mediated. There is, in my experience, like a. A hunger for depth of connection with other men and a realization that I need something here because I. I know what happens either when I'm solo and I lone wolf it, and I've certainly tried that. A lot of men I know I've tried to try that, and that doesn't work so well, or when my whole world becomes my intimate partner or my family and all the troubles that that causes as well.
Jason Lange: There's.
Luke Adler: There's something that can only happen with other men therapeutically. And it's more than testosterone. It's. There's a. There's a lot of nuance here. I'd love to untangle this with you, but when you're with. When I'm with men, I can. I can be. I can kind of be tough. I can be strong. I can joke around, I can around. But I can also have this culture of. Of being incredibly vulnerable. I get to be. I get to be all of me. And here's the funny thing. When I try to be that way with my wife and daughters, I'm like, oh, let me talk about farting and dick jokes. And like, they hate it, you know, like, my wife shuts me down. So fast. And it's. It's clearly like a need in me to be a little rough and tumble every once in a while. I need to cut loose. I need to not be so careful with my language. And we've used the term deadening. It's kind of deadening to just be sweet and soft all the time. Like, I like that. But I need to be strong. I need to be. Maybe strong's not the right word sometimes. I need to be loud. I need to be direct. I need to be blunt. I need to be brass, you know, so there's discernment implicit in all of this. And I feel like when I'm with men, I get to bring all of my dimensionality and I'm with. When I'm with women, I get to bring more of my softness and my kindness and I can bring some of my firmness too. But there's just a level of that, that kind of, I don't know, bluntness that just doesn't feel appropriate when I'm in a group of women. Doesn't feel respectful. It doesn't feel like it lands well. Yeah. Wondering your thoughts on that, Jason? We live in these worlds.
Jason Lange: I think it's a. A real thing that can sometimes be hard to explain until you've, like, stepped into the room and you just feel the energetic shift. And I, you know, I love co ed work and I think there's a huge place for it as well. So I'm not saying that it's not possible, but there is something magical I've seen when men are with men and when women are with women of. You know. And I was reading a book recently about kind of fatherhood and the roots of it, and they were talking about the energetic cost of spending time with the opposite sex. Like that just kind of at a biological level from going way back there. There is an energetic cost in terms of managing sexuality and relationships and just all this stuff that's not necessarily there with other men. So in one sense, I find I actually just notice I get more rejuvenated because some part of me can go offline that doesn't have to be tracking certain dynamics with the feminine and with. With women in particular. Now, obviously, this can get complex because if you're a gay man and you're spending time with men, you know, there's that layer there. But even still, I've seen men who come in who are attracted to other men. There's just a different energy when you're in that container of. Of that kind of whatever that Madness we're talking about is. And I think a big part of it, in my experience is just kind of knowing what it's like. There's just something about, oh, I know what it's like to be in that kind of body and hold that kind of burden in life. And this is just one of the things I've seen over and over and over again that there's. There's something to. That lived experience us men often share of when we drop into a deep space and we're like, you know, whatever it is, we're sharing about the hardest day, how we're depressed, how we don't want to get up or we're exhausted, and another man just, like, looks at you and he's like, yep, totally been there. Totally get it, man. Totally get it. And there's just immediately, for me, always like, oh, okay, I can. I can just relax into this. I don't have to pretend it's otherwise. These guys get it. I don't have to explain it. They just kind of know. And there's a real magic, I think, in power in that and something that, you know, part of why I think this is important is it's just something we've been doing for a very long time. It's kind of woven into our humanness that men often spent time with other men and away from their families, away from their communities. Right. You know, the most obvious example of this would be the hunt. Right. Oftentimes it was the men that would go out and hunt. And that was often a deeply bonding experience where men learned to become men and kind of got their connection needs met in some way. And then they would come back and be with their families and orient and plug into that. But there was that sensation of going away and coming back. And there's just something I've seen to that. To that experience of how it impacts men's nervous systems. You know, why I don't, you know, like I said, I don't really know, but I know it's there. I know I feel it. I know there's that, like, kind of permission there that we get when we're with each other of in some sense. Like, I don't have to hold it together here because I'm not the leader of this, you know, group or family or whatever, necessarily. I can just relax. And, you know, I think there's this unique also kind of quality and texture of masculine love that I think is a little different than the feminine. And maybe this is kind of what. What I'm trying to get at here is there's something about being around other men where the, the love that goes back and forth isn't based on any kind of need. Like when we spend a weekend with you, I don't need from you. Like, right. Like, I don't. There's not actually anything I need from you in terms of your attention or your presence. In a way, there's just like, we get to just be with each other. I think that's maybe the shift. I think for a lot of us guys, we spend so much of our life in doing mode. And then when we're around a group of men, some, somehow our beingness gets to just flower. And that for me is incredibly nourishing.
Luke Adler: I love that beautiful, beautiful distillation of that nuance. I think that's contrasted, of course, by when you're with a group of men and there's not a permissibility to. Or a culture that's set up to then share more deeply. Then you're left with kind of the default male culture, which is maybe to not talk about something that's deep, maybe to be tougher, maybe to talk about people who are pussies or assholes or, you know, Joe Biden's problem with America. Whatever, whatever it is you want to throw in. Cynicism, sarcasm, culture, just tough macho culture. And of course, I think some of these health issues meant there's. That's not satisfying to men, right. That that's even deleterious to their sense of well, being. Just, okay, let me just get together and be superficial and kind of act tough, but not get to that place in the hunt where we've pursued the animal, we've processed it. Now we're sitting by the fire cooking after exerting ourselves, doing something very macho and masculine and tough. And then, you know, the elder says, here's the talking stick. Let's hear what's on your heart. That part of the hunt experience or that part of going to the bar to watch the Patriots game or the jets game, it doesn't kick into the culture. And I think this is the thing that you and I are talking about. We don't want to organize around a church and point our love towards Jesus or the guru or who it is. Men aren't wanting to do that as much as still plenty of that. You know, watching sports isn't quite doing it just to, you know, release our suppressed rage and grief that are, you know, like, you watch it. You watch. I've experienced this watching duck football. It's embarrassing. Ducks are winning. I'm having a great day. And they start losing week seven of the, of the College Football League. And I'm depressed. I'm like, yeah, my whole emotional well being is caught up in these 18 to 21 year old boys. I'm like, something is up about how this is engineered so men don't want just the superficial layer of relation. And they, they don't, they need more than just the emotional part. They need this bigger picture. And what you and I are doing is, you know, we're on the edge of a movement that's creating a new culture for men where we get to be, we get to be our kind of primal animal cells and we get to be our kind of emotional, loving selves too. And, and we're, we're all so hungry for it. And it's, it's deep and it's, and it's strong and it's, it's heartening and it's dignifying. It's a dignifying experience. I love what you said about you get to be with each other and, and there's nothing we're needing from each other. I don't need you to give me a cuddle or give me a kiss or let me grab your ass or be told that you love me. It's like being with a brother. Just. We're, we're sharing this experience and, and I can relax. I know I can tell you, Jason, what I'm struggling with, what I'm pissed off about, what I'm sad about. And I can tell you, you know, where I'm killing it in my life, how things are going well. It's not just a complaining fest. It's a space for all of the experience. It's more than refreshing. It's, it's down. Like my whole nervous system can downshift in a way. I can be, I guess we're, we're hunting our authenticity in a way. We're hunting that. And that's what we can give each other, is we can go on the hunt. What's real.
Jason Lange: Beautiful phrase. I love that. Hunting, Hunting for authenticity, I think is a great way to describe also what I think is kind of this emerging new paradigm that like you said, we're participating in and that is really blossoming in a lot of ways in the men's movement. And that is this idea of like going away to do hard work and deepening with a group of men and then bringing the riches of that back home in. Whereas, you know, that used to be like going out and literally facing death on the outside in the world by hunting, by going to war, by exploring. Like, this was the legacy of men for a long time. And that was traditionally where men learned to be mentioned. That's where we discover ourselves. Obviously, a lot of us here in the west, we don't have to live like that anymore. That's not on the table. And you can recreate some of those experiences. And those. Those are important. But I think you pointed to this new blend I've certainly participated in and we've helped create and been in of the going away to kind of face death, so to speak, and face the edges. But it's in the inner landscape now, right? So it's. It's that hunting for authenticity on the inside.
Luke Adler: Like, what.
Jason Lange: Who am I? What's going on? What's unrevealed? What haven't I felt? And doing that in a container of other men is, like, totally revelatory. And I think it. It harnesses. And this is something we really saw in our last group, the kind of gift of how a lot of men traditionally bond, which is through doing something hard. There's just something to like doing something hard together as men. And suddenly you're best friends. You know, I remember in. I was just. I was in college, I think, and a high school friend had a bachelor party, but it was like. I think it was maybe around grad school time for him. So it was the kind of thing where he called together a bunch of people, but it was like three generations. There was high school friends, there was college friends, there was graduate friends, and we went backpacking in the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee. And I remember, you know, everybody flew in or drove in. It was just like this total hodgepodge of men who had no real relation to each other. And it was super awkward, like, the first day, because, you know, you kind of just pot up with who you know, and you're, like, kind of talking. But then we started our backpacking trip, and we hit a river, and there was an actual river we had to cross that was pretty deep and it was pretty fast. So it was like. And we had backpack cons. And so it was like, oh, this isn't joke time anymore. This is like, this is actually dangerous, and we have to be at attention here and get everyone across safely. And, you know, this whole process emerged of men going in and support each other, and it was hilarious. On the other side of that, everyone was best friends. It's just like the whole. Everything had shifted, right? Because, like, we got through this hard thing we did something together. But I think that's illustrative of what we get to recreate often in particularly in these retreat experiences now where men get to do something hard. It's just that the hard thing isn't necessarily climbing a mountain. It's what's inside of me that I've never known how to touch or access or free honestly before. And how do I go there with the support of other men? And we've, you know, we saw a number of men really go there and bring things forth from themselves that.
Luke Adler: Were.
Jason Lange: Really edgy and really vulnerable. And the bonding on the other side of that is just. Has been extraordinary to witness. You know, it's something I've lived, but then to see it manifest in other men continually is just blows me away.
Luke Adler: It is incredible in that, you know, you're pointing to this, this inner part of the hunt, right. We've hunted. Let's gather around the fire and excavate our inner experience. And the, the, the outer hunt in a modern times is really that pursuit of maybe a career. And you know, so a lot of men engage with that. They experience the, the challenges of that. How do I make money in this world, support myself and engage in relationship. And I'm doing. I've often said that the men, women I work with for that matter, are the ones that have followed the rules of society. You know, they've worked hard, whether it's in school or in a job, and they've got a stable career and maybe they even go to church because they were told that's a good thing to do or something. And they're starting to do yoga now. I heard that's a good thing. And they're working on their relationship. They're going to counseling, they're talking. But this inner world has not been explored yet. Despite following this perfect path, they're not happy. More than that, they're depressed. They're not satiated with their life. They've. They've followed the rules of society and something's missing is what we see on the outer stage of the path that we are prescribed is that there's not a, a social system for inner work. It's just not there. It's not there. You know, primary education, college, our, our education system is set up for us to survive, to make money, participate in society and commerce. But it's not really set up for this inner resilience. And as we've said, the pandemic just decimated and completely exposed that there's very, there's a Deficit of inner resilience, emotional resilience, spiritual resilience, lots of divorce, the rates of child abuse, spousal abuse. I'd be making it up, but maybe doubled or tripled during this time. It just wasn't the. The psycho spiritual resources to be, you know, in a challenged place.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. I. I often have been reflecting on. I'm part of many men's groups at this point, of which you and I share one. But I have a group that meets locally here in LA that I've been since, I don't know, 2014. You know, we meet twice a month, every other Monday night at clockwork. And when Covid first hit, you know, we did some zooms for like a month or two, and then we're in la, so we have, you know, beautiful weather pretty much every time. And we quickly shifted to meeting in people's backyards, you know, at first with masks and then more distance. But I noticed that, you know, as I reflected, that gave me like the minimum viable dose of just connection with people in person. So I was just get, like. In addition to my family, I was like getting those two shots a month of seeing my men. And yeah, it was a slightly different structure. You know, we weren't close as physically, as close to each other in proximity as we were, but it gave me a resiliency to get through that. Know, in some ways I was like, I. For me, that was like, preferable. Like there's less shit to do. I just seem like it's great, have some longing for that time because I think I was getting my normal dose. Now, had that happened a decade earlier, so to speak, before, you know, I had a wife and kids and before I had established my men's group, that would have been brutal. Brutal for me. I can absolutely feel as. As it was for many, you know, virtual clients I was working for and just having this, you know, there's a web of men, so to speak, around me from these groups. I think this is a key thing I just want to highlight here. Is it. It is. Investing in other male friendships is an investment in your resiliency. As you build those up, we're able to be more resilient in life. I mean, you and I both been through some pretty intense in the last decade, and it's a lot easier when you have the men around, right? When you just have that place to go to bring the feelings or get the rage out or to get connected to or have someone support you. That in a way, it's like day to day, it Might not feel like it, but just that crucial moment of something happens and where do I turn. And just knowing there's just like there's that group. I don't even have to think about it. There's, there's somewhere for this to go is, you know, in, in my opinion, like a total game changer and revolutionary and has changed my life and helped me navigate some pretty huge bumps. Just knowing that that group was there for me to turn to, that you guys and a couple of my other groups that can hold me through those times. And there's just something so powerful. I've seen it, you know, it's been mind blowing. We just, you and I wrapped our first Heart of Shadow just, you know, about a month and a half ago. And the amount of life that has already happened for that group since then, I mean like legitimate earth shattering traumas and shifts and changes in their lives has been pretty extraordinary. And had that happened six months earlier, these guys would have had so much less available to them in terms of how to support each other. So that it's one of those things that, you know, life hit hard, but they have more resilience between them now because they, they have a way to connect with each other and support each other and just somewhere to show up with this stuff. I think that's, you know, this phrase I often use with my clients of just, I think a lot of times men don't feel because we don't know what to do with our feelings or where to put them. Literally, we don't know what to do with it. So we just avoid it or numb it or drink it out or ejaculate it out or whatever that might be. And a men's group is somewhere where it's like, oh, I have somewhere to bring this, I have somewhere to put this. Now my feelings actually have somewhere to go in that again just changes the whole nervous system. It's incredible.
Jason Lange: Exactly.
Luke Adler: I'm just sending it out there. And rather than like the. The previous incarnation of me six, seven years ago was, here's a deep feeling. Let me go meditate, Let me do breath work like you said. Let me go jack off. Let me watch a lot of Netflix. Let me get the. Away from this primal power in me. And all we're saying is, hey, what if. What if you just had another choice where that could be shared, celebrated, honored, welcomed, Definitely not shamed, just welcome. Like, yeah, you know, right there with you. And then it's like the weather just passes. It's gone. You're, like, going back, back onto my purpose, my culture. It's a time, it's a. I guess the inner move, the inner and outer move there is small, but the impact is massive. Massive impact. And the thing that's hard about it, Jason, is that it can't happen. This is what's so unique about the work we're talking about. It can't happen through a meditative practice. You can't just mantra this away or do sacred medicine to get rid of this. It has to be relational. This particular form of healing is relational. So there's no way to just. I just want. I hear that. I heard this this week. I just wanna. I just wanna buy a piece of land, get some sheep, and not deal with anyone. I'm like, yeah, good luck with that. We'll see how long that lasts before all of a sudden you got a boyfriend again. You know, there you are with your karmic load that you're. You're. You're dealing with. So, yeah, it's, It's. It's a small. It's a small move, but a. But a massive transformation. And to get there, you know, it requires investing in relationship. Yeah, I think, you know, heart of shadow, it's so unique because, you know, like, you and I said last week, you. The work that you do and I do, we're. We. We like to ride the edge. We've kind of left the shallow end of the pool, and we're like, let's go. Like, we're done with just incremental change. We want to move life forward, and so we create this environment that's totally safe, loving, provide a lot of education, and then we jump into the far end of the pool and we're like, all right, let's see what's underneath in the water here. Let's go for it. And we. We lead some very deep work. And as a result, like you said, the bonding is found, and then you walk away with, you know, seven, eight best friends, and then you're off to the racing.
Jason Lange: And that part's so key. I think the. Again, I want to highlight the. The longevity that can come from these deep experiences. So, like, ours was, you know, it was a virtual program, but it had a live retreat in it, which really kind of anchors, I think, those connections and relations in a way that then I think facilitates the ease of the ongoing connection. Like you were talking about that. Yeah, I can just put this into the group or text these people because a certain depth has been established between us that I think can be hard to do necessarily, if you haven't quite had that piece yet. And, you know, this again, this deep bonding that can happen with us when we do, when we face our edges, so to speak, as men, is so, so important. And, you know, something you hear about all the time. I can't remember the exact phrase they use for it, but the survivor syndrome, or whatever it is for, you know, guys who are in or platoons together, and there's like a feeling of if one of them gets back home and gets relieved, he actually wants to go back. He doesn't want to, like, abandon his friends and these massively deep connections that a lot of guys that are in the service form and they come back to the States and they feel so hollow on the other side because, like, that level of camaraderie and brotherhood is so hard without these kind of intentional Practices and communities we've talked about to re. Cultivate. But that doing the deep inner work together, I think it creates that bond. I've seen, you know, it creates that bond in the sense of just the time we've spent together. And, you know, it's not quite the right word for it, but it's the equivalent of like, you form war stories of. Or remember when we did that thing, or you did that crazy thing, or we tried this, or you led this, or you revealed that thing. And there's these moments in time that we then like, share as a group that it does something for us and then we recount them and it becomes part of our history with each other and we give each other for them and we, you know, it becomes part of that bonding. And I've just seen that, particularly in this work we've been doing in the Heart of Shadow, this kind of deep inner work, it creates that just because the work itself is so artistic and intuitive and you can never know where it's going to go in situations we found ourselves in.
Luke Adler: We're right, you can't.
Jason Lange: You could. You can write the craziness of some.
Luke Adler: Of the shit that, that.
Jason Lange: That emerged in some of our circles. That was just what was there and what needed to move. But then in reflection, it's like, oh, my God, we did that. That was so crazy. Right?
Luke Adler: Like, can you.
Jason Lange: Can you imagine trying to explain that to anyone who wasn't in the room? And you're like, no, that's why we don't. We can we keep it, keep it solid in between us. But there really is that depth that we create together in that work by taking these vulnerable edges. And, you know the one big New York Times article I sent you that went around last year on males and close friends. Yeah, that was one of their number one prescriptions was for men to practice vulnerability with each other, which is one of those things that's easy to understand. But again, where a lot of men get lost is, well, how do I fucking do that? What does that mean? Right. And that's what a program, a men's group, something like Heart of Shadow, can actually facilitate you in having the experience of that. That's often much easier. When the right structure is created, then it's almost like conducive to that. And I think if you haven't had certain types of training, it can be hard for, like, how do I get a group of, you know, a dozen men who have never met each other before to reveal their most vulnerable sides? Right. If that Takes work. And it's not without risk and it's not without, you know, challenge in making that happen. But it. It's doable and we've seen it happen. And that's the beauty of facilitation and having an actual structure to, to go through as a group as well. Yeah.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Luke Adler: So you and I are qualified. You know, we can lead women, women, we can lead men. And we're leading really in this deep style of work. Not, we're not leading over in this group for men. We're leading more than men's group because we're men. We're familiar with that genderization, that socialization. But you know, when we lead women, it's the same kind of depth occurs, the same alchemy, the same power and bonding. It's just some of the cultural things are different. So there's no assumption that we know what it's like to be a woman and know that world, but we do know how to lead deep work from natural women, from color groups. So yeah.
Jason Lange: I love all that. Yeah, it's, it's, it, it's human work.
Luke Adler: Right.
Jason Lange: I think that's the thing underneath and sometimes the, the container to just getting there is sometimes different.
Luke Adler: Right.
Jason Lange: That's where there's a gift in men being with men. There's a gift with women being with women. And some of our first groups we shared with each other co ed. Right. Where you get, get all that mixed together and there's a whole other thing that can happen there. But point being, you know, I think for men in particular there is this kind of loneliness crisis. We're not, it's easier for men to default to a non relational space on the day to day. Right. I think this is something I do see as a difference between how men and women are moving through the world right now. A lot of women often at least have a couple people that are texting or like they're relating throughout their days and weeks. Whereas for us men, a lot of times it's very easy for that not to happen. We tend to, in my experience, and certainly something I live, when we're stressed, we tend to withdraw. So we don't actually go out with our energy to others. We pull in. And that's the thing that just decimates so many men over time, whether they're single or married or have families, they keep pulling all that stress in, like you said, or trying to eject it out of their body in some way rather than actually bringing it into relationship with other people, which is one of the key things that can really change things. So for men, I think it is even More important to find this type of camaraderie or brotherhood or group that, you know, for, for guys that have been following me know that. Yeah, my prescription for that is, yeah, get into a men's group. Like, I think that's the missing piece. And this program that you and I are leading now, the Heart of Shadow is like the deepest cut of that you can pretty much get in terms of how deep you can go and the types of things that can surface with other men, which results in that kind of lifelong bonding. I think that's the thing that the beautiful thing about this work is, you know, it can be therapeutic in a sense. There's that side of it, of things can move and you can change your relationship to feelings and trauma and all kinds of stuff. And the piece that, you know, you don't necessarily get in a normal kind of one on one therapeutic relationship is you get that group, you get the brotherhood, you get that, that, that tribe around you of guys who just know what's up for you and that you can bring the honest truth to fast and quick and get that support when you need it. And you know, as I like to say, sometimes also get that challenge or accountability or get your ass held to the fire of like, wow, you said you were going to do this or you're doing something pretty shitty there, man. You know, like, might be time to, you know, take better care of yourself or your family or something, but from a place of love, not from a place of tearing down. And that's a shift that I've seen really happen with a lot of men I've worked with have the light bulb moment of when the switch goes from wow. I spent my whole life thinking other men were competition to actually, the right men are going to be my greatest allies in life. They're going to be my greatest allies and champions. And so I want to spend more time with them. And that is a total game changer.
Luke Adler: Such an incredible feat, feeling to be or have a community like that and that I have that in various forms. Just, just knowing it. There's like a sense of strength I feel behind me, alongside me. You look at the cost of our program, I think it's, where are we at? 3,020, 600 early birds, something like that. Some of them might go, wow, that's a lot of money or similar. It's fine, I can afford that. I think it's right. That's kind of the cost of some of this work that's out there. And when you look at the benefit of it right this, this is not just a 10 week program with a, you know, a luxury retreat in the middle. And then, oh, cool, that was a great 10 weeks. It's over. And, you know, where's my next, you know, moderately priced, expensive adult form of spiritual entertainment? That's not what this is. This is an investment in your health, in your financial health, your physical health, your emotional spiritual health, health of your family, the health of your company, your businesses. This is an investment in that. And in some ways it's quite affordable when we look at how it, you know, has the potential to last a lifetime if you want. Like our men's group's been together five years, six years maybe, and we had an initial financial investment, we spent time together, those facilitation processors, training involved, and now we're the owners of it. And the dividends, the, what it's given back to us is invaluable. You can't put a price on it. It's priceless. So I would just say if you're out there and you know, you're resonating with our work, like what we're saying, you like the testimonials on our part of shadow site. This is the real deal. This, this. We're not blowing smoke up grass. This isn't some feel good drum circle where we just, all we do is stare into each other's eyes and say, you're beautiful. I mean, I love that. And we're gonna do some of it. It's a lifelong relationship with yourself and a group of men that can only grow. And I remember something our, one of my mentors told me after I'd done a few of these trainings, said, luke, the work just gets deeper, deeper and deeper. And I believed him because I had already done two, two, five day trainings and the second one was twice as deep as the first. And I could feel what he was pointing to and he was not bullshitting. It just the work has continued to deepen. It's gotten subtle nuance. It still can be for me in my own personal work, it can still be quite explosive, you know, firework like. And so I just say, don't let money stop you around this. If it's a lot for you, it, it is beyond worth it. And you know, if, if you need some support, you can reach out to us, but it's a tight container. We got 10, 12, I think 12 spaces.
Jason Lange: 12 guys. Yeah.
Luke Adler: You and I are focused, man. We. This is like, this is the time when Jason and I turn it all the way up. So you know, we're giving it all. We're pouring it on, because for us, this is more than just, you know, if we wanted to make a ton of money, you and I maybe would have become day traders or lawyers or, you know, we would have done something that was about money. This is our calling, right? This is what we care about. We care about culture shifting in the healthiest, most vital possible way. And we're kind of all in for this. So it's not kind of. We are all in. So you'll get the very best of Jason and I. Our attention, our focus, our care. We will pour ourselves into this group because it's that important that you leave with a men's group that's established, that has momentous momentum that can carry you forward. You know, in the challenges that are just part of life, they're happening. They're gonna happen. We cannot outrun hardship. So with that, I'm stoked. I'm fully inviting people to step up, to sign up, get on with us for this next one. It's going to be fire. It's going to be absolutely.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And you can check out all the information for this [email protected] and like Luke said, reach out to us if you have any questions. And only 12 spaces, so it'll. It'll fill up. So definitely don't wait. And it is. You know, I was just talking to a client the other day about this. Again, the same shift that you got to realize, particularly for those of you guys who, like, have families or have relationships, this is an investment in your family and in your relationship. It actually is. You will be able to show up more presence, more energy, more vitality, more love when you have this kind of group of men around you. I know. It certainly has done that for me. And so this is the real deal. You know, loneliness is not something that has to be the case. There is a different way of connecting with other men out there, and our program isn't the only way to do it, but it's pretty damn good. So we're definitely gonna toot our own horn a little bit there. All right, my man. Well, pleasure being here with you as usual. Look forward to when we do this again soon.
Luke Adler: Yeah, thanks.
Jason Lange: Jason.
Luke Adler: Great to see you. I love, love talking with you about this stuff and just so inspired by getting to work together. Share this work.
Jason Lange: If you're interested in working with me around dating, relationships or your masculine presence in the world, just go to evolutionary men. Apparently.
