6: From “Nice Guy” to Confident With Women & Married to a Goddess | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it was. I mean, and this has been a big part of what I do with guys, is you don't need pickup when you're in alignment and in your own integrity. Meaning, like, when I got clear and I started doing my practice and I knew what I wanted, then I was literally moving my life in the direction of where I wanted it to go and spending time with the types of people and the types of tribe and the values in the community with those people. That's where I found someone else who shared that stuff. Yeah, for one. And where we didn't have to play any games.

Melanie Curtin: Welcome to another episode of Dear Men. This is a super exciting episode because we're going to be hearing from an actual dude who went from being kind of a nice guy to married to a beautiful woman. And this is really important to me because as someone who coaches men, I can say that I've had multiple clients who are in this situation. Similar boat of how Jason was at the beginning of his experience, and then I'm really excited to talk to him about his transformation. So, yeah, I'm here with my friend Jason. He is founder of Evolutionary Men, and he works with men on masculinity, sexuality, and relationships. And we've been in the same community for a long time, and I have a ton of respect for him and his work and his journey and everything like that. So I'm really excited to share with you guys. And welcome to the podcast, Jason.

Jason Lange: Awesome. So good to be here. I'm really excited.

Melanie Curtin: Good. I'm excited, too. So we're just gonna dive right in. I want to hear about your kind of experience sort of with women and dating and sexuality at the beginning to kind of how you are now. I know that's a really big sort of arc, but I'm really interested in. Yeah, your experience. How was that for you? How was it dealing with women and your sort of teenage years and beyond?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, there really wasn't any experience. I mean, there was and there wasn't in some ways, but, yeah, junior high, high school in particular, I never really dated anyone, didn't have a girlfriend, never successfully entered into a relationship, never had sex, didn't kiss anyone, had a string of what I would call super crushes, where, you know, almost like the semesters of a school year, every, you know, semester or two, there would be a new woman that was the complete.

Melanie Curtin: Or girl at this point. Right.

Jason Lange: Yeah, girl that was the, you know, total object of affection in terms of, like, a mad crush. But who I Generally didn't particularly interact with, or if I did interact with, it was incredibly awkward in the sense like, wouldn't talk to them, would notice them, and then maybe try to ask them all out all at once in the sense of, like, haven't really ever talked to you, but, hi, would you like to go out Friday?

Melanie Curtin: You know, did you actually manage to ask any of them out, though?

Jason Lange: I did maybe two or three times.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: In the traditional sense. The other times, it was kind of more like friends of friends energy of. I don't know, kind of more angsty. I like them. Do they like me? I don't know. Just hoping something would happen and nothing really would.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And that was pretty. That was just super painful. As I went through high school, it.

Melanie Curtin: Was because you were seeing other boys. And now these would be young men, especially towards the end of high school, junior and senior year. Now you're pretty much young men.

Jason Lange: You.

Melanie Curtin: You're seeing them having success.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. People were dating and having relationships for me in particular. And this is a pattern that continued and continues in the work I do. I was lucky enough to have a pretty strong group of guys in high school, the similar pattern of which was that there was literally one guy in our crew who ended up having a girlfriend.

Melanie Curtin: Okay. So lots of guys who were not getting laid.

Jason Lange: Yes. Which helped, though, because then we all could hang out with each other Friday and Saturday night. It was part of what connected us was the struggle around that.

Melanie Curtin: And then did this pattern kind of continue in college?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I would say what really started it, and it goes deep. Right. Like, a lot of the patterning and my awkwardness around it, like, many people had family of origin stuff around it. So, you know, in my family, there was not much intimacy, and it was not something I saw modeled by my parents. Yeah. In terms of, like, what it looks like to flirt with someone you like and how you connect and, like, coming home and kissing and just very.

Melanie Curtin: That was all absent.

Jason Lange: That was all totally absent. So it was just very foreign to me completely. And, like, it. It was painful enough back then that I have no doubt I have it to thank for starting my spiritual journey because it was, like, stuck in the suburbs. I mean, this was. You know, I didn't know what a coach was. I didn't know what a dating coach. None of that stuff was even in my consciousness. But I got exposed to, you know, some spirituality and some books. And being totally honest, the reason I got into it was I was like, wow, if I became an awake person and spiritually awake. I bet girls would like me.

Melanie Curtin: Right. Sex is a big motivator.

Jason Lange: So.

Melanie Curtin: But can we just back up to high school? Not a lot of luck. And then college, I'm guessing more luck, but not necessarily a lot of it. Like, what is the chronology of not a tremendous. When's the first time you kiss someone? When's the first time you had sex? Stuff like that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, I would say the significant thing in high school was despite all my fumbles, there were two people. Had I been more in my self, I could have dated. Like, we hung out a couple times, and there was literally one of them who I was just so awkward and uncomfortable around because I hadn't ever kissed a girl and was afraid to kind of broach that and presence that. That it was her friend that told me, like, she's literally waiting for you to kiss her. Yeah. And wondering when that's gonna happen. And it never happened. And then, you know, it fizzled out pretty quickly.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And there was another one that was kind of like that where it was just, you know, there was like the natural connection kind of in the beginning, but then I wasn't able to.

Melanie Curtin: To like, to take the action steps.

Jason Lange: That would keep it. That would just make it interesting for her.

Melanie Curtin: Back on those two experiences, do you feel like it was because you were so nervous or like, what was the. What was stopping you? Especially, let's say the girl whose friend was like, hey, she's waiting for you to kiss her. There was still something that prevented you from actually taking that step.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: Was it fear?

Jason Lange: For sure. Just anxiety? Like, generally being anxious in my body when I was around girls that I was attracted to.

Melanie Curtin: So probably not breathing.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Totally restricted. Trying to think of the right thing to say. And then shame. Just even then. Even then. Already towards the end of high school, like, having not kissed a girl was already like, I'm behind. Oh, everyone else has already done this stuff.

Melanie Curtin: I see. So not necessarily sexual shame sort of version of it, but, like, even before.

Jason Lange: Sex, just like the I haven't kissed someone sex. What if I'm a bad kisser?

Melanie Curtin: What if she doesn't like it?

Jason Lange: What if she laughs at me if I'm like, I never kissed a girl.

Melanie Curtin: Got it. So the shame had to do with, like, what if I do it wrong?

Jason Lange: Yes. What if I do it wrong?

Melanie Curtin: I haven't done it. Everyone else has. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Jason Lange: Oh, my God.

Melanie Curtin: What if I do it wrong and then you're just in the moment not kissing her.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I would Say also just judgment of, like, what will she think? Like, other people have already kissed. Right. Like, what's wrong with this guy? Why hasn't he done it? Like, that was. I don't know if you know, it's not necessarily true, but that was the fear. Yeah, for sure. So I. Yeah, I left high school with no girlfriend, having never kissed anyone, never having a relationship. Just this series of super crushes of women that would take all of my attention that more often than not, I wouldn't actually engage with.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Which was like a fantasy protective mechanism I can see now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Because I can crush in crash land. Yeah. In crash land, it's actually really safe because I know how to deal with it. There's no actual rejection.

Melanie Curtin: There's no actual risk.

Jason Lange: Yeah. There's no risk in it. So.

Melanie Curtin: And would you say that most likely your super crushes didn't even know you had a super crush on them?

Jason Lange: Oh, totally. Absolutely. Because I never talked to them. How would they know I had a crush on them?

Melanie Curtin: Right. So super crush is literally. They're not even necessarily aware that it's happening. It's just in your head.

Jason Lange: Yeah, the majority of them, you know, there were a few that I attempted to, like, presence it with or whatever, but. Yeah, the majority of them, there was just no interaction. There was no presencing anything.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Or any real connection. So. And that was part of it, too, is madly crushing on people who I never actually connected with. So in. In truth, I didn't even know if I actually liked. Is this a person who I would generally genuinely enjoy being around in, like, have that real genuine kind of connection? But in the crush phase, it was just this story or idea or image of them. So again, that was just a kind of funny thing where I'd crush on these people, these women who I didn't even really know.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And then tell me a little about when that started to shift. It would have been college, maybe.

Jason Lange: So, yeah, then I went to college, and my freshman year of college, again, I didn't really. I would say there were only two significant things that happened. One was it was probably the first time I really deployed the nice guy strategy.

Melanie Curtin: Okay, tell me about the nice guy strategy.

Jason Lange: The nice guy strategy was, like, there was a woman who I met and I tried to be so nice that.

Melanie Curtin: She would sleep with you.

Jason Lange: Yeah. That connection with the. You know, there would be an inevitable, like, connection of sexuality or whatever. So, you know, we'd hang out and I'd help her with things and help her with homework and do Things. And she spent the night once, and I didn't make any moves on her, and it was just like, no, I'm the nice guy.

Melanie Curtin: Very platonic.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But nothing happened with it, you know, like, truth be told.

Melanie Curtin: Actually, can we go back to what you just said? I'm the nice guy. I don't do that.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: What was the thinking behind that?

Jason Lange: You know, part of just hearing her stories about how guys had treated her and a lot of women's stories, you know, a lot of friends and not wanting to be, as I say, that guy.

Melanie Curtin: Yep.

Jason Lange: Not wanting to be that guy that was actually part of my identity is not being that guy. Because, like, if I'm not that guy, then maybe she'll like me.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: Right. So in some ways, it's a kind of nefarious strategy, too.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Because it's. It's attempting to manipulate a woman a little bit.

Melanie Curtin: Maybe a little bit underhanded, but the core of it is good in a way.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: I don't want to be rapey. I don't want to make her uncomfortable. I don't want to have her feel unsafe. I want to be the guy where she feels safe. Absolutely. Does that sound about right?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. And that's willing to listen and is actually in it for connection as well.

Melanie Curtin: And doesn't just want her for her body.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. And then the only other one was it was probably towards the end of the year, there was another person I had just kind of been friends with that, you know, in retrospect, I can see, like, she would have been fine with something happening between us.

Melanie Curtin: Stabbing handkerchiefs.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And you were blithely skating by the handkerchief.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Because she, you know, I could see, too, the, like, the protection mechanism of the super crushes. They were often with girls that were not interested in me versus other women that kind of were. So there was a mechanism there that played out multiple times, for sure.

Melanie Curtin: What would happen when you could tell a woman was interested?

Jason Lange: Get awkward, avoid it, really. Yeah. Not know how to have a conversation or any of that or what to do with it. Just kind of keep it super platonic.

Melanie Curtin: When it became a possibility, it's like your body would back away even more.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. And, yeah, absolutely. I would say, particularly for the few women that were interested in me, that I didn't feel that initial charge around. But in retrospect, I can see that charge was some protection in one way or another. And then it wasn't until. So then. The big milestone was my second year of college. I switched Colleges went somewhere else. That was way more in line with who I am and kind of my vibes and my values, which helped relax me a little bit because I was kind of more just myself there, for sure.

Melanie Curtin: More naturally confident.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I lived in the equivalent of, like, the International House. So I was getting to interact with a lot of people from overseas in Germany and just England in particular. And the significance of that was there was someone I met at a party, and we clearly had some interest in each other. Yeah. And I kind of used my normal strategy again of like, kind of nice guying, listening, not making moves. And we were out at a party one night, and she was kind of drunk. I wasn't even drinking at that point. And she kissed me. She just made the move on me. Which I think just coming from England, where there's a different disposition to sexuality and how people date, where, you know, we had talked about it, too. Like, there, it's like you hook up and then you find out if you want to date. Here, it's more like you date to find out if you want to sleep with someone.

Melanie Curtin: Although in college, sometimes it can be that. Yeah.

Jason Lange: But it was the same thing. I was. I mean, I was just in fear around that. And I don't actually even know if we kissed more than that one time.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: If we do, I don't even remember it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So it might have just been that one time. Because then I think my thing came up where all my shame and fear, lack of experience and not knowing what to do next and all that happened. And that kind of went into what I would call, like, angsty mode. Weird energy comes up, and then I want her to like me and she doesn't like me. And, like, emotionally hurt. Boy.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Just the attraction goes right down. And then. I mean, that. And then she kind of. You know, that angsty energy around her took the rest of my year. Like, there was energy with this girl who was clearly not interested in me, you know, two months after we met. But, like, that's where my presence stayed. So I, again, wasn't open to anything else.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So she sort of became super crush.

Jason Lange: She totally became super crush.

Melanie Curtin: Totally became a super crush. This is something, actually, I hear from my clients a lot of, like, a woman maybe having a little something with her, and then she's not interested. Possibly for the angsty thing you just pointed out.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: But he stays attached to her for, I mean, months, sometimes years.

Jason Lange: For sure. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And it's just so hard to let go of that. I want to come Back to that later and see what you. How you coach your clients around that now. Because I think that's something that it sort of can prevent. Because you weren't that available for the rest of that year, I'm guessing, to anyone else, because you had this super crush.

Jason Lange: No, you know, all my stuff was around thinking about her or trying to go to parties where she was at, or like, you know, like, literally keeping tabs, like a mental sense. Like, she took all that energy and then I just wasn't noticing other people or.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's. I think a lot of men are going to be able to relate to that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, energetically. I was just closed off to other.

Melanie Curtin: People, that's for sure. And so tell me a little bit more about how you kept shifting into the mode you are now.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say the thing, like, there was another year of college. I mean, this pattern kind of played out more and more, but I got a little more comfortable every time. I'm not even sure if that's quite it, but. So the next year, you know, there was another person who became my super crush. That there was initially some connection with that we made out a few times. And then my fear mechanism and kind of angst, energy and anxiety around moving towards sexuality, you know, kicked in and same thing. She took my energy for the year, gave her my energy for the year, and kind of made myself unavailable to other people.

Melanie Curtin: So super crush. There's some interest. You're scared to move forward to actually having sex because you're like, shit, now I'm 21. Every year it gets worse.

Jason Lange: Yeah. None of my friends know I'm a virgin.

Melanie Curtin: None of your friends know. And so the fear of having sex is like, shit, what if I do it wrong? What if it's not good enough? It's not gonna measure up to the other guys she's been with. And all of that kind of produces this paralysis of like, I'm not gonna make the next move because then we're gonna end up having sex. And then I will be revealed as.

Jason Lange: Yeah, something.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: And, you know, I would say, what we'll come back to at one point, but for sure, in that time, I would say I wasn't just. It wasn't terribly connected to my body either. You know, I was running at one point, which did help. And I think that was probably the most confident I fell in felt in college. But otherwise, you know, this was before I discovered anything about how to be in my body or connect to my body or anything like that.

Melanie Curtin: So it Was a lot of being in your head.

Jason Lange: Totally. It was. Oh, I mean spend.

Melanie Curtin: You spent your whole hundreds of hours.

Jason Lange: Of mental energy around. Like, what should I mean? One of the. I guess one of the big things certainly that goes into the Super Crush and tie would tie up a lot of that energy. Now that I think about it, is the replaying moments.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, interesting. I should have done this. I could have done that.

Jason Lange: Oh my God, I should have said this. Or I totally missed that opportunity. Like I see it now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But lots of just replays with like, I should have, I should have, I should have. And just thinking about things over and over and over and oh my God.

Melanie Curtin: So kind of past centric.

Jason Lange: Totally. Just like staying trapped in those. In those moments. For sure. Spent a lot of energy around that.

Melanie Curtin: Rather than being present in the moment you were actually in.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And in your body.

Jason Lange: And then that kind of. That ended college. Really.

Melanie Curtin: Still no sex.

Jason Lange: Still no sex. Had made out with two girls at that point. And then. I mean it was just like a long period in the desert of having desert.

Melanie Curtin: I'm familiar with the desert.

Jason Lange: Having come out of school and. Right. Like being deathly afraid of particularly approaching women I was attracted to. Like, the great thing about school is there's just natural engagement with. It's easy to other people that you're just walking through your day and oh my God, there's a single person and there's a girl and we're in the same class and you know. So even opportunities for super crushes went way down because I, like got a job and was in a community.

Melanie Curtin: Now you're in the real world.

Jason Lange: In the real world. And you know, it was really the bar scene and there was some going out and trying to meet people. But it's just not something I was good at.

Melanie Curtin: Yep.

Jason Lange: Truth be told, and particularly around that age, I think that my pain around it did tend to surface in just alcohol.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: I finally started drinking when I was 21 and it did help loosen me up where like to an extent it brought me in my body somewhat. And I think that was the initial attraction to. It was feeling just a little more like loose and talking but also at the same time drinking a little too much.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: For sure. Probably didn't help things long term. But yeah. Then I was working a job and it just started this like probably 5 years where was working in California and did. Yeah. I can't even think. I don't even think I had crushes during that time. Like, I'm really trying to think about it.

Melanie Curtin: So big drought.

Jason Lange: Yeah, big drought. And then moved home for a year and same thing. Just. It was like living at home with my dad and no connection to anyone and significant at the time. You know, put on a lot of weight. So very not comfortable in my body, even how I'm feeling. But then it all started to shift when I decided to move to Colorado, where I had been attracted to kind of the spiritual and the consciousness scene. Got myself out there and met a tribe of people, which was great. Some of whom. Part of what was particularly valuable was there was older men, guys that were a couple years older than me.

Melanie Curtin: Mentorship.

Jason Lange: Yeah. They were kind of friends and mentors, really, that just had done. Been far more successful dating. None of them knew I was a virgin for sure.

Melanie Curtin: This was like a. Like a dirty secret.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Totally dirty. And, you know, knew I was trying to date and not great with it and all conscious and all wanted to be doing better with women at the same time because, you know, we're in their mid-20s, and that's. That's what we're doing. And that was right when the game came out by Neil Strauss.

Melanie Curtin: Yep.

Jason Lange: Which we, like, all read and totally devoured and went out and, you know, would go out nights on Boulder trying to use pickup lines and do the stuff. And it didn't really ever work for me.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: Worked for a few of the other guys a few times, but, you know, it wasn't. I just wasn't there internally yet.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I would say.

Melanie Curtin: Was there anything valuable that you did get out of the pickup scene or the pickup work?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, like, the stories, particularly in his book. He is a great writer, and there is some genuine. What I got out of it, actually, is that for a lot of men. And I do see this now as I work with more guys, the pickup scene is their first entrance into men's work.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: It's the thing that even makes them think about how they're showing up with a woman.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: What is going on when you walk up to her and talk to her.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Versus just this is how women are.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: So it's like, I have an impact here. How I'm showing up is gonna affect her instead of just some artist one way. Okay.

Jason Lange: And what I would say is the significant things about this point in life were. It was the first time I went to therapy.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: I saw, like, a talk therapist for maybe a year that was pretty good and pretty valuable. And she would just talk to me and help me, kind of bring me into my body and whatnot. And I'm trying to remember some timing around things. There was a pretty significant event that I don't exactly remember the timing around, but it was, I think, after this therapist, because my job had changed, I wasn't able to see her. And so I was seeing a men's coach, actually, so a guy that was helping me on just getting my life aligned and, like, moving towards my purpose and doing more film work. And he did help some guys with dating as well. But what's significant happened in that is there was a girl I met on MySpace at the time.

Melanie Curtin: Yes, MySpace Throwback.

Jason Lange: We hung out a couple times and on and off. And, you know, she was kind of seeing someone at the time and then not. And, you know, there was some mutual interest. And then I don't exactly remember how it happened, but then there was a point where she was interested and I was interested, and we went out and we had this great date and we made out a little bit and I was super excited. And then one of my. A band was coming to town the next week that I thought she'd like, so I invited her, we went to that and we were, like, dancing and I was really enjoying it and really dancing with her. And then after. After the show was over, you know, she was starting to kind of pull away a couple times in the show, like, still vibing on me, but just, you know, taking her space sometimes. And afterwards we're like, literally walking out onto the streets of Denver and I'm like, trying to put my arm around her and get really close to her, and she literally just said, would you get off? And just shoved me, like, shoved me away. And I immediately just shoomp. Totally withdrew, totally collapsed, was nearly silent. I think we. I don't know if we took it. I think we took a cab all the way from Boulder and took the cab all the way home. And it was just like, dead silent, dead awkward.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I think we dropped her off at our house. Might have said a word or two, and that was it. That was like the last connection we ever had.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And that was, I would imagine, like, the nightmare scenario for a nice guy. Because. Because in that moment, if I'm you, I'm imagining like, oh, my God, I'm that guy.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: Like, this is my worst nightmare. My worst nightmare is getting rejected by a woman because I did something sexually awkward or sexually wrong or somehow made her uncomfortable or feel bad or. It's like, this is literally like the hell scenario.

Jason Lange: Yes. And, yeah, it's interesting now. Even I remember, like, she said afterwards, like, like, right after she shoved me and saw me freezing, she's like, it's not like, I don't want that. It's just like, it's too much right now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So. And I think that was part of just having not had any connection. I was so hungry for it didn't. Again, just hadn't had the experience of, like, what natural back and forth flirting.

Melanie Curtin: And space, like, calibrating closeness. And is the moment right. Right now? Are you picking up her signals? Are you listening? Like, all of that being in your body and being able to gauge all of that.

Jason Lange: Totally. And so I froze and I, like, became a child literally in that interaction and didn't really know what happened and didn't know how to explain it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Luckily had a good friend who I called up the day after, and I was like, it went really bad. Yeah, he's just like, just come over and he just sat next to me as I played video games all day. It was amazing. It was amazing. It was so good. I couldn't even talk about it yet, you know, but he could just tell there were like, something went down.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Really grateful. But what was significant about that is I think I really knew something was up in terms of how I just totally collapsed and literally became younger and had my. Had one of my sessions with my coach, and in that he had done some depth work with people and, like, some real deep emotions started coming up for me, and he kind of held me and guided me through it. And then at the end, he was like, hey, man, you know, I just got to be honest with you. This isn't really my forte so much. You know, I'm more of a coach and working on future stuff. Like, I see there's a lot there, and I just think someone else might be able to handle this better. And turns out my wife is a gestalt therapist, so you might want to set up a session with her and explore that. And I did. And it was immensely powerful and useful and engaging. Just like comfort with presence and how close someone is to me. And that was a really big turning point. I remember one of the most significant things that was just nerve wracking for me at the time was she was in a center and there were masseuses, therapists, everyone. So she set up a session, one of our sessions with a massage therapist. So the massage therapist came in, and then she stayed with me, and she was like, I'm just. We're just gonna walk through, like, you asking for where you want to be touched, how you want to Be touched. And then I'm gonna ask you, like, how does that feel? What's too much? What's not? It was so intense because no one had ever really touched me, like, truth be told, other than a few times I'd made out. But learning to just, I think, modulate and regulate my nervous system a little bit around that energy, that's a big part of what she and I did in that work together, that's so interesting.

Melanie Curtin: And when you say that, it was intense, like, was it because was it again, that, like, hunger or that, like, wanting touch, or was it, like, asking for what you want?

Jason Lange: It was asking for what I want. And it was just. It was literally the, like, the bracing my body had with the touch because it was so unused to it. Like, receiving touch was so, you know, it was kind of like, ah. And then asking for what I wanted was like, I don't even know, you know?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I worked with her for probably. Probably a year, year and a half, and it was incredibly fruitful and incredibly valuable.

Melanie Curtin: That was a big turning point. And it came out of that. Would you call it a shame spiral or. What would you call it?

Jason Lange: For that collapse. Like, I totally collapsed. It was just collapse.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Yeah, total. Which I think was just a very physical, embodied version of even the kind of crush spiral from before. Like, kind of getting close to somewhere and then it falling apart and, like, me kind of withdrawing or getting weird or protecting.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. But the difference is that time you broke the cycle by seeing mentors, therapists that could hold you.

Jason Lange: Yes, totally.

Melanie Curtin: And that changed.

Jason Lange: And so this was all happening. I was going to a therapist. And the other significant thing, I'll say, that happened this time and two other times in my life, actually starting now as well. But it was around that time that same friend that sat with me, we got hardcore and started going to the gym, like, every day, dedicated practice, 6am, five days a week, working out. And I got super disciplined because my weight had been all over the place and. And I lost a ton of weight in, like, three months and totally transformed my body. And, you know, it made such a difference. Not that it was just more about me feeling good in what I was doing.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, not even the exact poundage, but, like, yeah, I'm fucking working out and I'm doing my part, and I feel healthy. And just feeling healthy started to bring some vitality. And.

Melanie Curtin: And did you notice that also made an impact in terms of interacting with women?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I could notice. People would notice me, which felt good and felt more comfortable and Then the most significant thing was then there was someone I had kind of been interested in college, and somehow I went out to San Francisco and we hung out once. And I was super attracted to her. And I think it was the perfect scenario for me. I think, particularly because of everything I was going through around the physical is because she was long distance. We just started emailing back and forth.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And, like, connecting just over email, which was much lower anxiety for me. Take my time to, like, write something and not. Not have those. Oh, I should have said. But, like, really kind of compose myself and go back and forth. And then I think we even talked on the phone a couple times. And then it just. I was going out there for a wedding, and I invited her through very fortunate circumstances. We stayed somewhere together and got put in the same room. And I was kind of drunk. And just one thing led to another. Yeah. Like, I mean, in some ways, the drunkenness was both. It helped me be bold, and it kind of numbed me in a sense of just, like, pushing through the fear.

Melanie Curtin: Not as much anxiety, not talking.

Jason Lange: Didn't tell her I was virgin. Didn't tell her I had no experience. Just like, here we go.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And.

Melanie Curtin: But you were able to take action in that circumstance in a way that you hadn't necessarily with super crushes in the past.

Jason Lange: Yes. And I think part of. I mean, what's so clear now is part of why I think I even felt safe enough in. That was beyond just the alcohol of that night. We had had a couple months of solid connection beforehand over the emails. So there was some emotional resonance there. There was some safety there. I knew she was someone that was interested in me in that sense because. Cause she. You know, we had been spending time together. She went to this wedding for me, with me. And so, like, it finally happened at 26. It was 26 years old, so it took a while.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Even still after it happened, I didn't tell any of my friends that that was the first girl I sleep with. Totally not. Wow. Totally not. There was still. Still kind of shame around that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then we saw each other kind of on and off for about a year or not a year, maybe six months. And then paths just kind of naturally parted because I wasn't gonna move there, she wasn't gonna move here.

Melanie Curtin: Did it feel like at the time. Did it feel like, okay, my life is different now? Like, I had sex. Like, now I'm set or I'm a man or I'm. Was it a really significant thing or was it.

Jason Lange: It was A massive relief. I mean, it was just a relief to have, like, had it done. Like, okay, that's happened now. I can do it.

Melanie Curtin: Check that box.

Jason Lange: I think it was the feeling of, I can do it.

Melanie Curtin: I can do it. Okay.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Like, I'm not a dysfunctional crazy, like, oh, okay. Like, this is. That's it. I remember at one point being like, this is it. That's it.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, that's how I felt the first time I got drunk. I was like, this is. This is whatever. Like, I don't feel that different.

Jason Lange: Yeah. But I can also say at the time, like, I do remember very faintly being conscious of, like, I still even wasn't super connected to my body. There was, like, a. A thing in being with her that it was still hard for me to, like, fully be there.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Kind of heady.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think it was just safer up here. And not fully in. Not fully in.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And focusing a lot, A lot on her pleasure. Like, and again, like, even with all the therapies, still just struggling to feel that, which I think a lot of nice guys and a lot of nice guys I've talked to can do. Overemphasize.

Melanie Curtin: Overemphasize. Giving to her total attention rather than being present in their bodies, owning their.

Jason Lange: Attraction, which I think can be great. I mean, from what I experienced and from some guys I've talked to can be great initially, but then something about that is unsustainable long term.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I mean, I'd be curious if you've experienced that from your side. Like, what is it about that? Yeah, but. Yeah, that was there. And then another dry spell. And then again, like, got. Yeah, it's funny, there was like another dry spell. And again, I kind of slipped off. My. My personal practice routine wasn't going to the gym as much, Got a little heavier, and then kind of got rededicated and then met some other girls and had my first experiences of it, like, being easy, of just connecting with someone and then moving towards physicality. And it, like, oh, it happened. Wow.

Melanie Curtin: And when you. When you say it would feel easy, like, was that because you were picking up on the signals that she was giving and actually taking action on them where before you would.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it was the realization that, wow, if she's here talking with me on this date still, that's a.

Melanie Curtin: Signal she probably likes me?

Jason Lange: Yeah. No, I think, like, literally there was like a. Wow. I asked you to do a movie on, like, a Monday night, and you came. Like, you came, said yes to the movie, and then and there. There was still, I think, a little what I would call, like, counterphobic action.

Melanie Curtin: What does that mean?

Jason Lange: Like, I would still get anxious because I still had anxiety around moving through the process. So there was a little like, I'm just gonna go for it. At one point it was like hearing the voices of doubt. Come on. But just like, shut that off.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: Shut that off and just make a move and see what happens. And, you know, and then it was like, shocking when stuff would actually happen. It's just like, holy God.

Melanie Curtin: Because I'm curious, when you say, like, it was so shocking, like, what did you expect would happen? Did you expect her to, like, throw water in your face or something if you made a move?

Jason Lange: No, I think. I mean, I think there was some embarrassment in some part of, like, oh, wow. All I had to do was, like, connect and show my interest.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And like, make a move.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, all thinking back of all these years and like.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I think so that was probably shocking. There was probably a matrix moment of realizing, like, wow, there were a lot of women who. There were opportunities there and I just wasn't tuning in on things or had I just, you know, pushed through my discomfort a little bit, you know, I probably could have had more relationships all these years. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: So the shock was more about, like, oh, my God, this isn't actually that hard.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: But I was making it really hard.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And wow, like, the number of years that I went through, that could have been different. Shocking.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. And. And then I would say the only thing. The only other thing that feels precient or important about this time is like, one of. The. One of the people I did see for almost like eight months, but we were kind of just friends with benefits that we'd hang out on, like, Mondays.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But she really.

Melanie Curtin: I like that friends with benefits only happens on Mondays.

Jason Lange: But there was this thing, this other layer of protecting myself that was still happening, of not really entering into a relationship with her and, like, not really claiming her. Yeah. There was this, like, emotional. In my mind, it was this thing of like, oh, I still want to date more because I'm just starting to get successful now. But if I really feel back to it, then there was like, we were starting to have the physical connection. We got along. But, like, the emotional vulnerability was I was not there. I was not there. So there was this kind of shield thing happening.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. You were only willing to get so close.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Which I think just got to a point where she was ready for something deeper than that at some point. And then, you know, that ended and that hurt. And I was like, ah, oh, my God, I should have been dating this girl. I could have had, like a great girlfriend. And so there was something around that. And then it was like a year later, I was like 29, I was six months away from moving to LA, that I met someone online and we started dating. And it was. I mean, it feels like so cheesy to say it now, but it was the first time I had a girlfriend. We actually discussed what we were, and we were boyfriend and girlfriend and I could introduce her as a girlfriend and she introduced me as her boyfriend, which felt like a milestone. It was somewhat embarrassing and somewhat of a milestone at the same time. Like, wow, I'm just having my first relationship here. And of note, I would say she was. She was like seven years younger than me, which I actually think was a good match, because emotionally, I actually think that's kind of where I was at in some regards. And. But then I was moving to la, so that there was just kind of a natural. This isn't gonna go anywhere. But since it was my first relationship, I had no idea how to end it.

Melanie Curtin: Okay.

Jason Lange: No idea like what closing a container like that would be. So it ended very messily.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: With hurt feelings, particularly. I got hurt quite a bit. Yeah. But mostly because I didn't set any kind of container or any ending to it. And just. Yeah, there was like a lot of unresolved, unexpressed stuff.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: That then felt hurt around. But so it was around this time that I moved to LA and was, you know, trying to think. I had done quite a bit of work.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I mean, because I'm imagining Now you're 29.

Jason Lange: 29. I'm going to be turning 30.

Melanie Curtin: You've been doing work, personal growth work now. So this four years full time in.

Jason Lange: Boulder, I'm, you know, going to meditation retreats, leading workshops, seeing amazing speech teachers speak and teach all kinds of stuff. I was doing more depth work than I'd ever done before with one of the teachers who I'm now training with.

Melanie Curtin: What's depth work?

Jason Lange: Like deep shadow work. Yeah. So what ended up being is I found a teacher who. And, you know, kind of like a Jedi therapist, as I call him.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, I like that.

Jason Lange: A Jedi therapist that facilitate actually getting into the body state. I withdrew on that one woman with that date with like, actually taking me back into, like, what was going on in your life at that time, what's going on at your nervous system. And he was the first person that like really facilitated me going there and plunging back into what was just like deep, deep sadness. Deep sadness around lack of physical touch with my mother. Yeah, grief took a long time and a lot of going into it for it to come up. And just like lots of grief around that and lots of just ease I would say in the sense of like, oh wow, that like I get it. I get. No wonder why I had such a hard time like connecting with the women and like it was just never part of my nervous system in some ways. So when I left there I was, you know, still struggling in a lot of ways, but had had a girlfriend, had had sex and you know, was moving across the country to like follow my dreams and live on my purpose and that kind of stuff. And so I moved out here and fairly soon met someone that was. Had a lot of shared interest in terms of the film industry and we started dating and then.

Melanie Curtin: And by now you had enough presence and you were in your body enough that that process of meeting someone, having chemistry and then asking her out or the kiss, reading the signals, that all became. It felt a lot more natural at this point.

Jason Lange: Yeah, like that, that was one, that's. That was like we were at a networking event and I saw someone I was attracted to. So I walked up to her and said hi. And then that like started the relationship.

Melanie Curtin: And that would never have happened five years prior.

Jason Lange: Oh my God. Totally not.

Melanie Curtin: She would have become another super crush.

Jason Lange: Yeah, she would have become another year.

Melanie Curtin: She would never have even known.

Jason Lange: She would have become another super crush. And we started dating in. There was like connection there and it ended up turning into a five year relationship which was definitely the most significant relationship I'd had at the time and like an actual like getting to know each other over time and everything that came with that and commitment and all commitment anxiety around commitment and for me still this kind of tension around. I feel like I'm behind, behind in relationships. She had already dated someone else long term and everything felt really new for me and I'd get embarrassed about it and felt stupid about things sometimes.

Melanie Curtin: But you hung in there.

Jason Lange: But I hung in there and yeah, we had a good connection and good relationship that at some point we just started. It became clear that we weren't gonna be good long term for each other. My spirituality kind of came back online in terms of when I first moved to la. I wasn't really involved in it. I kind of let it all go to focus on film. But then it came back online through the authentic relating community and just getting more Involved and it really being part of who I am. And, like, what I really wanted in a partner was, like, someone who is doing their work that was doing it just because they were passionate about it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And that was not because it was one of my values, but because it was one of their values. And so there was just tension around there. And there was a lot of tension.

Melanie Curtin: Because she wasn't really on that path.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And a lot of unexpressed emotion, I would say again. And still, even with her even five years in, lots of protection, like, lots of emotional protection and not expressing things and holding things back. And for that, I think it was similar to the shame and anxiety of the. My virginity. And, like, the longer it went, the harder it got. There was a moment, you know, I should have broke up with her a year earlier than I did.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Jason Lange: But there was, like, fear on doing that and being alone again. And the longer it went, the harder it was gonna get. It was just, like, a really hard, hard thing. But I had a very clear moment. I remember in Trader Joe's where I.

Melanie Curtin: Was like, Trader Joe's is where it all happens.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Where. I don't remember. I think it was. Was on the phone with someone. But I just had this really clear download of, like, wow. I know my soul needs to go through the experience of breaking up with her. Like, it's gonna not be easy. And it was the hardest thing I'd ever done and super painful. But it just. I was just really clear that I was not. I was not loving her in the way she deserved to be loved. And there was another man out there who would love her exactly where she was. And the second I really let that into my body, like.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: It was like, I have to change it. Like, I'm so out of integrity here. And. And we ended it. And it was. It was really painful. And then began, like, a year of going. And it was. It was actually so painful, it birthed a whole new level of practice for me, I will say. Yeah. It was, like, almost instantly after that. By this time, I had been doing plant medicines, and I went on another plant medicine journey.

Melanie Curtin: Plant medicine meaning ayahuasca.

Jason Lange: Ayahuasca. Psilocybin, in particular. Those two.

Melanie Curtin: Which is mushrooms.

Jason Lange: Which is mushrooms. And did tremendous amount of work on my nervous system.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I can instantly. The first time.

Melanie Curtin: And these were held ceremonies.

Jason Lange: Oh, yeah. Very strong containers with my men's group. And for intentional purposes. And, yeah. Like, literally could feel the silocybin going in and cracking open my heart. Yeah, it was incredible. The first journey I ever had. But beyond that, there was just like 5. I moved to Boulder right when I was 20. 26, I think, or 20 or 24 or 25. And the whole time I was there in that community, meditation was something you should do that I did on and off a couple times. But I never really did it. Never like, really felt. It was like a should.

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: And after this breakup, it was so painful. It was the first time I ever just started sitting regularly every morning where my career wasn't at, where I was at. I was under a lot of financial stress. I just broken up with this woman and just was feeling lost in some ways. And I remember so clearly sitting a couple times. And then the damnedest thing happened where I wanted to sit because I was like, holy shit.

Melanie Curtin: Sitting, meaning sitting in meditation.

Jason Lange: Meditation, yeah. That 30 minutes on the mat is the only place I don't have to be thinking about what the fuck am I doing with my life. And like, feeling that day to day. Then I again, kind of got deep. I was deep back in the gym at this time, really working out. And the six months after. The six months after I broke up with her, I would say I changed more than I think I've ever changed before. In a quick period of time of just. I will share the other significant thing that happened during this time is this is actually a huge part of my story. It's just interesting that's coming out now. My relationship to porn and masturbation, all those years that I was single grew and grew and grew.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And is what helped me survive. You know, I can. I can say in some ways it, like, saved my life. It was the only connection that you.

Melanie Curtin: Had with the feminine.

Jason Lange: But even in my previous relationship, it would come up and sometimes I'd be watching it and I had a sexually willing partner. And so there was just something there that wasn't quite right. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Something shadowy.

Jason Lange: And so in that six months, I was meditating every morning, working out like a. Had a great diet. And I had, you know, I'd studied some David data and some kind of Tantra stuff and made the clear decision one day where I was like, I am never going to release again unless I'm with a partner. And, like, took this vow for a while to just. No porn. Porn fasting, no masturbation.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, no, actually, I think I went with no release. I think I did masturbate sometimes.

Melanie Curtin: Release mean no ejaculation.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And it. And it's. I mean, I think my longest Run was five and a half months, and it completely transformed me.

Melanie Curtin: I'm so curious about this.

Jason Lange: Completely transformed.

Melanie Curtin: Like, did you have more energy?

Jason Lange: Was it. What did you do? I was like a fucking golden God. I was working out so hard. I had so much, much energy. And, like, that was the only place to put it. And people would notice. They were just like, you were just fucking glowing. Literally.

Melanie Curtin: People told me that as from porn and glow guys.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Point being, this was all adding up to. Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess. And what's significant at this time is so after that relationship ended, I was single for a while. And then I had this idea that I'm gonna. Okay, I'm ready. I'm, like, ready to date. I'm ready to, you know, have the success I always wanted. And then I got into the online dating thing and I spent, like.

Melanie Curtin: Did it crush your spirit?

Jason Lange: Eight months, like, spending hundreds of hours on probably Tinder and match every site. I was on every site and chatting with people, trying to go out on dates and, you know, going out on dates, and then the person just doesn't look anything like, you know, like all the things, all the things, all the things happened. And then, you know, had one successful interaction with the woman in that time that didn't work out for various reasons. And had. Did have a super crush during that time in some ways, that was, like, taking that energy from me and was just, like, going deeper and deeper. And as the year went on, I just noticed, like, oh, my God, I'm, like, chasing this girl, doing the nice guy thing, chasing this.

Melanie Curtin: So you were more aware of it now. You were conscious of it. You could see it still doing it.

Jason Lange: And I was conscious of it, but it was, like, building, and it was building. And then, you know, all the fucking online dating just like the. The super crush thing. Right. In some ways plays out online as well. Of the just profile after profile. Oh, my God, she's the one.

Melanie Curtin: Got it right.

Jason Lange: Holy shit. She's gone to Bernie, man. She meditates. Like, this is the one. This. Holy shit. And then all the energy and then. And then, you know, it's just like an online thing, and there's just nothing but energetically, it's like, very taxing to, like, feel that. And then the buildup and then either there was just no interest or no response, or we went on a date and it just. There wasn't any connection. So point being, it was like, late October, and I was on a medicine journey and was in a pretty intense place.

Melanie Curtin: Medicine journey meaning a psychedelic A psychedelic journey that was held.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And just super clear. Dropped in and had this experience of just like, wow, I am done chasing, I'm done chasing, I'm done chasing. And I was like, I'm ready to be met. I'm just ready to be met. And number of things had added up together where I was like, I'm pretty clear that if I just follow my path, I'm gonna meet someone who's on their path and we'll have resonance. Like as long as I tune into that and stay on my path, that's where I'm gonna meet her and there's gonna be no chasing. Like, if I'm in that place, I won't have any of the anxiety, their discomfort or like all this thing, this clear experiences I had. And so it was that there was a meet up my friend had, which it was a guy I met and knew and had a connection with because I had followed my path and my passions in terms of some things. I'd blogged about meeting with him and starting men's groups, which led him to inviting me to one of his passions, which was totally my tribe, consciousness hacking. And he was talking on lucid dreaming and walked in and immediately noticed an ass. Put it nicely, like, you know, walk into a room as a guy and scan the room and like, you know, are there any women here? And definitely noticed someone I was attracted to and then didn't talk to her right away because we were like, it was in like presentation mode. But very clearly remember something happened and someone, she raised her hand and said something super dorky about yoga sutras.

Melanie Curtin: I mean like really, really Consciousness.

Jason Lange: Yeah, like really, like, wow. Like, I don't know, like incredibly elaborate, incredibly knowledgeable, incredibly dorky, but also like, wow, okay, this is someone who's doing something.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, she's, she's on the path too.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And then at the end of the night, turns out she was talking to the girlfriend of the guy I knew and they were talking and I just walked up and said hi. And we started talking. And there was definitely some like, immediate interest, I would say, and attraction. But the funny thing was everyone was about to go out to a bar and this was in my year of super hardcore meditation. And I had not meditated that morning for some reason I'd been up late the night before, so I didn't do it. And I was just. For what? I was just super like, no, I gotta go home and finish my practice because I had a streak going, I didn't want to mess it up. So we had connected. And then she's like, are you coming to the bar? And I don't exactly remember. I said. I was like, no, I got to go home and meditate because I didn't do my practice today, but can I get your card or something? And she gave me her card, and I just left. But Facebook during the next day. And we went out for coffee at one point, and then we, like, went out for a real date before Christmas break. And it was the most intense, real first date I think I've ever had in that, like, there was genuine, real connection. And she was genuinely really meeting me and calling me out on shit and expressing herself emotionally in ways of like, wow, that really hurts, or, wow, I don't want to be here, or, like, all kinds of different stuff.

Melanie Curtin: But you hung in there.

Jason Lange: But I hung in there, and she hung in there, and that was, like, totally different for me.

Melanie Curtin: And you were only able to hang in there because of all the work that you'd been doing, I'm guessing.

Jason Lange: Yes. No. So absolutely, like, had I not. Had I not been meditating that whole year and I've been feeling comfortable in my body? Hadn't I not learned emotional intelligence that through authentic relating and the work? And had I not even been able to just clearly express what I was noticing and wanting in my body, which at one point was like, wow, I noticed. I don't want you to leave tonight.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And, you know, we didn't hook up that night because it wasn't time. It was like, there was a genuine connection there that needed to be protected in my mind. That was really sacred and special, I think. And then, yeah, we had. You know, part of what was going on for me at the time was I had just come out of that other relationship about a year earlier and had this story that I still wanted to date a lot of people, and that's not where she was at. And that was, like, our intense initial friction was like, I have this story. I want to be this guy. She doesn't want that. And, like, what do we do? What do we do? And there was. It was the first time, like, I've ever gotten to this point with someone where there was no answer that could be immediately had. But there was this feeling of the quality of the connection kept bringing me back to her, and it kept bringing her back to me of, like, this isn't easy, but there's something real here. And we just stayed with it and stayed with each other, and she stayed patient with me as I. For me, it was more that opening my heart to like, oh, no, I think I do know what I want. And I actually think I want to be with someone and go all the way in and not just do the relationship thing, but wake each other the fuck up. That level of relating became very apparent to me, was on the table, like something I could have with this person. And so at some point there were just some very clear moments of, like, what else could I be looking for? Like, really, what else could I be looking for in a partner? And then we. We started dating and then I let her on some adventures and she kept following me and opening me up and celebrating and I asked her to marry me. Very. Yeah, very impromptu. But when it was clear, it was clear and she said yes. And I'm super grateful. Super grateful.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And when you look back at that whole sort of courtship period, what would you say are the main things from what you had been doing that prepared you to fully meet her?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it was. I mean, and this has been a big part of what I do with guys, is you don't need pickup when you're in alignment and in your own integrity. Meaning, like, when I got clear and I started doing my practice and I knew what I wanted and I was literally moving my life in the direction of where I wanted it to go and spending time with the types of people and the types of tribe and the values and the community with those people, that's where I found someone else who shared that stuff, for one. And where we didn't have to play any games. There was no. There was. I will say the number one thing I got out of those early Internet interactions with Violet that I do tell my guy friends about is it wasn't easy, but there was ease. And which is a really important distinction for me of like, because you know this word game, like, girls play games and we play games and you can't let her know you like her and vice versa. And then she doesn't call you back. Yeah, there's just this whole thing around that. And like, when I say it wasn't easy, like, there was genuine friction between us and like, we don't know if this will work, but I, like, I want this, you want that. Like, we have different values. Like, it was not easy and there was emotional close down on my side and sometimes on her side, but there was ease in that. It was pretty clear there was real connection there and that we both wanted something that could be met in the other person. So there was like a. I didn't have to, like, Pretend, like, pretend anything with her. I didn't have to hold anything back, and she didn't hold anything back for me. It was like, no, I like you and I want you. But here's what would feel good to me. Like, just boom. And there's like, an ease in that and that we were both just all in. Like, you know, I maybe put the brakes on more than her on the way to that, but there was like a. Oh, yeah, okay, we're just gonna keep moving this direction as opposed to, you know, I think some of the. It's like the anti super crush of, like, does she like me? Does she not like me? I gotta find out, like, just, you know.

Melanie Curtin: Well, yeah, it wasn't a super crush. Cause you were actually relating. Cause the thing about super crush is you're not actually in a relationship with that person of any kind. You're just. It's all in your head. This was actually happening in the world. So the first thing I heard you say was you were on your path and you had a sense of your purpose, and that was one of the things that prepared you. Would you say embodiment was one of them?

Jason Lange: Yes, I would definitely say. Yeah. I had been doing even more work at that time. I mean, of significance. I had started and joined my second men's group. So I was dropping in with a tribe of guys every two weeks. That pushed me in some ways and kept me real and met a lot of my connection needs in some ways. So. So it kind of freed me up, I think dating so that you are.

Melanie Curtin: So incredibly hungry for that from the person.

Jason Lange: I was getting connection elsewhere, I think is super important. And yeah, embodiment, you know, working out more, meditating more, having done some dance classes and just anything I could to, like, get in my body and heal and work through the old nervous system, wounds and trauma. So that, you know. And there were moments in our early interactions where I would kind of numb out or disappear, withdraw. But they were much shorter in duration than before and maybe not quite as intense where I could at least say some words.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it wasn't a total freeze.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it wasn't a total freeze. But those, you know, that alignment, that inner thing of, like, I never had to worry about when I approached her. There was no worrying about what to say. It was just like, I'm here. Yeah, I felt an alignment. I felt. When I say that I just, like, knew who I was and what I wanted and what direction I was going.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And that I wasn't willing to. I wasn't Gonna chase anymore at that point. And that's, I think, where the ease in our relationship came from. If it was like someone who's like, no, I'm ready too. Are you ready? Yeah, we're ready. Okay. And then, you know, it unfolded from there. But yeah, what I, what the other thing I'll say is, I mean, all the emotional work I did was a big, like, having a language. And she had done a lot herself, which was crucial. So having a language to share, to talk about what was happening for us in real time while things were happening.

Melanie Curtin: Like, I'm feeling shut down right now, or.

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, sometimes it wasn't even that eloquent, but there was, like, noticing and talking about that kind of stuff. I would say is. Was just crucial for the connection and for us being able to come back to each other. And that's, that's one thing that. So my whole frame of, you know, evolutionary men is I actually think nice guys have an advantage, which, you know, for all those years, I did not think that because, you know, I would see these other guys who were macho getting more women are having more sex, but not necessarily having better relationships. And so I truly believe, you know, and a lot of the clients I think both of us work with are guys that suck at dating but are going to be great at relationships. Like, once you're in, like, the ability to emotionally connect with someone and talk about your feelings, which might seem like a disadvantage at first because you're not as confident and you don't have the moves. But, like, that's what matters long term, I think, and is much harder to teach. Much harder to teach someone to be, like, have access to their emotional body and have a good heart. Whereas, like, how to approach someone, how to kind of get more into alignment, like, those are tactics and those are things that you can learn. So I, you know, and part of my mission is in. No offense to the ladies out there, but in the. Some of the communities I roll in, I just never want to hear the word, where are all the good men again? Because in my experience as a guy leading men's workshops and men's groups, I know a lot of great men, a lot of really great men. And clearly there's just some kind of mismatch in terms of how they're showing up for the women and what the women are feeling. So it's just like, oh, okay, like, there's nice. There are good men there that just for some reason, whether it's their sexual energy or just of kind confidence, they're not expressing in a way that these amazing women around them react to. So part of my thing is like, no, those are the guys I want my female friends dating because they're solid, they're good, they have the hearts, they're going to be great partners for them. So what are these just like sticking points in the way and let's go through those.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And speaking of that, I want to just transition a bit to. It's almost like you went through this whole journey yourself and now you're helping other men that are in a similar position. Can you say a little bit about what you do in your work and how men can find you?

Jason Lange: Yes. So right now I do two primary things, one of which is live events, and that's if you happen to live in la. I do men's groups that anyone can drop into twice a month, where we actually practice connecting and supporting and challenging each other as guys, which I am a firm believer in the idea that the depth of your connection with women is often set by the depth of your connection with men.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And you actually mentioned that as a big part of your journey is that when you move older and you had masculine, you know, friends and mentors, that's when a lot of things start to shift.

Jason Lange: Totally. And for a lot of guys, I think, they don't think to start there.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Oh, I want to be dating women.

Melanie Curtin: I need to be around women, men.

Jason Lange: But there's something that happens, you know, with. With guys in a group that I think helps them grow. And then I. I lead some more intensive deep dive weekends, and those are in LA as well, where we kind of do the work of going into the old shadow material and the old wounds and really just expressing what's there in the body and finding it and creating space around it, which is, you know, part of what helps a man and be in alignment and in presence.

Melanie Curtin: So that he doesn't sort of check out or do that freeze response.

Jason Lange: Right, totally. And then for guys that are in LA or not in la, I have an online program called the Pillars of Presence, which is a virtual group program that guys from all across the country are involved in. And we go kind of step by step through, like, what is presence and how does one embody it?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Because presence is the sexiest thing to a woman.

Jason Lange: Yes. And is that magical thing of. Right. So the honest truth is if you want to get good at dating or attracting someone, you just have to live a kickass life that you feel in alignment with. Like, so once you get your insides Right. The outsides in some way just handle themselves is a big part of my frame. Like, so it's not about, you know, there's some techniques and stuff like that, but it's way more about going deep inside, getting clear about who you are, what's happened to you, what you want, and how you want to move forward in life in a tribe of men with some support and coaching on the way. Yeah, that. Yeah, I'm really excited about the work we're doing and.

Melanie Curtin: And full disclosure, I'm also involved in that program. So you have. You have some support and feedback from women, too, in the structure of that program, right?

Jason Lange: Absolutely. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: So we kind of integrated thing, kind.

Jason Lange: Of the dream combo there, and we.

Melanie Curtin: Are the dream team.

Jason Lange: Saying, you know, it's really the culmination of, like, what did I want 15 years ago? Like, yeah, that took me all that time and journeys and money and pain and strife to figure out of, like, okay, now what if I can just help bring this on because, you know.

Melanie Curtin: And help guys get there faster.

Jason Lange: Help guys get there faster without pain and without as much pain. And, you know, I'm just super passionate about, you know, the world is really ready for men to step up. Like, you ladies. Yeah, you're fucking doing your work and you're holding the planet together and, like, legitimately and, you know, the. It's time for men to show up and do that. And one of the big pain points for a lot of men is they're relating to women. And when they're not relating to women, that's so many pathologies. All the me too stuff is from guys that don't normally know how to relate to women, so they have to use power dynamics or get super lonely and go on meds and then fucking shoot people. Like, this stuff is really real and near and dear to my heart.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And so I know there's nice guys out there like me, and I want to help you, and I want to help you get confident and relate to women in the way you want. Both so you can be a gift to these women because they're dying for. For good connections.

Melanie Curtin: Yes, we really are.

Jason Lange: And, you know, another one that I'm passionate about personally is so when guys are ready to commit, they don't settle. Meaning when they decide to marry someone, they're really in it and not feeling that I never did my thing or I didn't get there because, like, the stability of those connections leads to stable families, which leads to so much of the work I had to do was because of My family of origin.

Melanie Curtin: Right, That's a really, really, really good point. That when you invest in yourself, you're investing in your future family, which is actually serving the planet.

Jason Lange: Absolutely.

Melanie Curtin: Even if you don't do anything else or any other volunteer work or any of the rest of it, it's the most important thing we can all do.

Jason Lange: So. Yeah, I mean, the shallow end is like, yeah, helping nice guys, you know, have better sex, intimacy in relationships. But the deeper thing is like, I really do think it'll impact the world and I feel grateful to have a partner who's doing her version of that as well, who I think you guys have heard before. And really doing our part to serve and create these stable, anchored relationships that promote the well being of everyone.

Melanie Curtin: Aw, that's a good place to end. So we're gonna put all of this stuff in the show notes, the stuff about Jason's Men's Group and Pillars of Presence, the online program that we mentioned. And then I'll also put in some information about the live events that we do in LA in case you want to check those out if you're in this area. But do know that there is both stuff for people that are in la, but also people that are anywhere. Because that's something that I think is really important is accessibility and really making sure that this stuff is available to people all over because not everybody is in the major cities.

Jason Lange: And that's one last thing I'll say for guys out there particularly that don't happen to be in LA or, you know, a hippie town like Boulder where I grew up is don't try to do it alone. Like there's so many guys that try to lone wolf it. And that's a big part of, I think why so many men are hurting is like the chain of masculine transmission has just been shattered in the last 50 years.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Of like most men grow up not having just been around. Good, healthy, modeled, masculine.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And so, you know, with it, if it's with us or not, like, find it. Find a tribe, find a mentor. Yeah, find someone because that's. You don't have to do it alone.

Melanie Curtin: That's the way out.

Jason Lange: You don't have to do it alone. As a guy, everyone thinks I have to figure it all by myself and then I can show up. Yeah. It's no like connect, connect, connect, get help. Don't do it alone.

Melanie Curtin: That's a really good ending. Thank you for mentioning that. I think especially because women and the feminine is more generally more connected, that's not something I would have thought of. So thank you for bringing that up. So we're gonna drop all that stuff in the show notes, and that wraps up this episode. That wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you wanna reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter, Earmen Podcast. That's Earmen Podcast or Facebook. We have a group, Dear Men Podcast. We also have an email address, dearmen podcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast, just email us at that address, dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.