There's this moment about twenty minutes into my conversation with Melanie Curtin where she says something that made me physically lean back in my chair. She's describing how a client of hers realized he'd been holding his breath for thirty years every time his wife got emotional, and suddenly I'm thinking about every relationship I've ever been in. We're talking about something most guys won't admit: we're afraid of women, not in some obvious way, but in how we move through relationships, how we hold back, how we contort ourselves to avoid her emotions.
We covered a lot of ground. The different flavors this fear takes, depending on what kind of mother you had. The anxious mom who had you constantly monitoring her nervous system. The angry mom who made you believe men are fundamentally bad. The depressed mom who needed you to rescue her from her own darkness. All of that lands in your body and shows up later with your partner.
I shared some of my own journey with this, including the somatic work I did to actually get comfortable with touch and closeness. How I had to learn that my wife's emotional weather isn't the same as the geography of our relationship. That her being pissed at me doesn't mean she doesn't love me, it just means she's pissed right now.
The bottom line is this: if fear is leading, you are not. You can't lead your woman through her emotional storms if you're terrified of them. And she can't fully trust you if she senses you need her to stay small or even keeled for your comfort.
This work matters because when you can actually meet a woman in her full emotional range without flinching, without defending, without making it about you, that builds real trust. That's where polarity lives.
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Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that just sense of freeze, Right? I'm freezing. She's approaching me, and I'm freezing up in my body. What the hell is that? And there's so many men that come to us, and they. And they say, I don't have this go on at work. I don't have this go on, you know, in my family of origin. But as soon as there's an attractive woman, I freeze. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode with Jason Lange. We're talking about a pretty important subject today that we wanted to put some attention on. This has come up in. In our group lately and is often behind the scenes of a lot of relationships or a lot of relating, especially for men. And. Yeah. So are you scared of women? Let's talk about it. So, as we start this subject, I'm curious if you want to share a little bit, Jason, about your own journey around this. Do you feel like there was a time that you were scared of girls or women? I say girls because maybe you are young, maybe you were a boy, but what has your own trajectory been on this? And then what have you noticed with our men?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thank you for speaking to that, because I do think that, you know, we're going to get into some of the connections here between nice guy tendencies and this pattern. But I wanted to go back to something I thought was really important and a pattern that I think we've definitely seen in a lot of our men, which is emotional neglect in the home. So. And I think for a lot of people, not just men, it's uncomfortable to put labels onto childhood experiences, particularly when you understand truly at an intellectual level, you really grasp that your parents were doing the best that they could. They were doing the best that they could. What they provided was the best that they could provide. And a lot of people experienced emotional neglect, and some people also experienced physical neglect. And one of the things I just want to point out and go back to is that for you, for you, Jason, and for a lot of the men that we've worked with, you didn't get enough touch, you weren't held enough, you weren't you know, I want to say the word stroked, but I don't mean in a sexual way, but just like someone's hand on your back. Physical affection. Physical touch. Physical affection. And when you come from a home where you weren't getting enough touch, then touch becomes uncomfortable and weird. Right. It's something that you're not comfortable with. Well, that becomes an issue when you're dating because what happens during sex? Physical touch, what a lot of people like when it comes to affection. Physical touch. It's part of the equation. It's a lot of the. You know, when I was working back in the day, especially like in dating workshops, we called them bridge moves. Right. How do you get we're sitting across from each other at dinner to we're kissing by the car? Bridge moves are sort of like your hand on the small of her back or you touch her hair, you, you're joking around and you touch her shoulder. All of those kinds of things have to do with physical touch. And if you were raised in a home where that was very rare or non existent, then you're going to be more uncomfortable with touch and that's going to be something that you have to reintegrate into your life and become more comfortable with. So can you just take a moment to sort of share your experience with that and maybe what you've witnessed in other men we've worked with because it seems like emotional neglect is pretty prevalent.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it directly correlated to some of my fears even. I mean there's just like a bracing. I became aware of in my nervous system of when touch did come my way. Even if I wanted it, there would be like, it was almost like a hiccup, like someone would touch me and my body would kind of startle a little bit, which didn't always send the most comfortable signal to the person I was with. And that had a big impact on me. When you then stack that with the emotional neglect of, you know, fear in a sense started from I don't know what I'm feeling. So sometimes I'd be in fear, just I don't know what I'm feeling. So I hope they don't ask me or I don't know how to communicate something here. Right. I, I get a sense something is happening, but I don't know how to talk about it. Right. Because I came from a family that didn't talk about these things or didn't have that kind of connection there. So in some sense it's like there's certain parts of my nervous system and some of the nervous systems of guys we work with that are, they're just atrophied, right. And when we don't feel full, when I didn't feel full capacity there, it made it even easier to fall into fear with the feminine of like, oh, what if she is mad at me? What if she does ask something? What if I do present something? And as I got more comfortable with touch through somatic therapy and doing work, it became more easeful. And paradoxically, I wasn't as afraid to touch either. I think there was a polarity there for me in that as I was uncomfortable receiving it, it also created a hiccup in the. For my nervous system when it was totally an appropriate time to touch, so to speak. Like it was, you know, all, all, all green lights, so to speak. But I would kind of have a hiccup around it because of just how stuck my nervous system had been. And then that would start to create some stories and fear in me around how they would respond or wouldn't respond. Or am I now blowing it? Because I feel like I should be initiating touch, but I'm not. And oh, I can feel she now also feels this would to initiate touch and I'm not. And then the whole fear, fear, kind of death spiral I would often get into would ignite there. So neglect is, I would say, a deep part of this because part just in a simple way, what we're not used to is connection, no matter what. And I just. What I mean by that is, okay, there can be conflict or I don't have to be perfect, or the person I'm with doesn't have to be perfect, but we're still connected and connection in itself is soothing. And when, you know, I didn't have that soothing, you know, it's another way to put that kind of structure, stroking energy. As I, my family didn't know how to soothe, I had to learn to self soothe from a young age in some pretty unhealthy ways. And that soothing, that lack of soothing results in fear, right? If I'm not soothed, I'm more anxious and afraid to begin with. And particularly then if it's with a woman who I kind of want to be soothed with. But I'm very confused about the energy with like, I'm not clear on that. That starts to create all kinds of hiccups, as I keep saying here.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really appreciate what, what you're saying and, and the, the journey that you went on in particular, and the ways that you engaged in men's work but also, you know, somatic therapy and working with different practitioners. I think it would be a good time to mention the massage work that you did, because I think we have a pretty big library of episodes now. So not everyone has listened to everything.
Melanie Curtin: I also want to just briefly bring in the cultural element because in North America a lot of us live in a much less touch friendly culture. And they did a study once where they had two good friends meet up in Puerto Rico and two good friends meet up on in the mainland US and I think they did 60 pairs of friends or there was some, there was some n. Right. There was some number that they were doing. It wasn't just one set of friends. And then they averaged the number of times friends touched each other in Puerto Rico and the number of times they touched each other. Mainline US and in Puerto Rico it was 60 to 70 times per hour. So that's like almost once a minute. There's some kind of like touching someone's shoulder or just little things, right? Little touch. And in mainland US it was five to six. So that's a pretty drastic difference. And I remember the description. It was either one of the social scientists involved or someone, someone involved said that the culture in places like Puerto Rico is more like marshmallows and one us is more like ping pong balls. Like we're all bouncing off each other, but not like sticking or like that sweetness and sticky sort of soft, squishy, cuddly culture. So I do want to, I think that there's, there's such a unique culture in each family system and then there is the cult, the wider culture that we are, that we grow up in. And I would say that as a woman who grew up primarily in North America, the biggest contrast that I've seen is ease and comfort with touch in other countries, other places that I've been. Latin America comes to mind that's even more comfortable with touch and how different it felt to date and relate with men there versus somewhere like Japan, which is even less comfortable with touch, in my opinion. And how distant and you know, it just, it just felt different. Right. And so there's a, there's a wider kind of cultural experience that can be had. And if anyone's listening and you've been to other cultures, you might have that like Whoa. This is really different. Feels really different to be here. And there's something to be said for, in my opinion, travel in that way just to get that experience of, like, wow, not everyone is like this. There are other ways to be. And I really appreciated the word that you used, atrophy. Because muscles can atrophy, and then we can work them out and they get stronger and we have more power. So I just want to be clear. Everything we're talking about is workable. And, Jason, I think you're a great example of, you know, you invested significant time, energy, resources, money into all of this, and it paid off. Right. You're married to a beautiful woman. You have great kids, you have a really lovely relationship, among other things in your life, you have a fulfilling life. And that was not what was happening before you did the work, that it was not fulfilling. It was confusing. It was lonely. And I really, really wanted to highlight what you said about going into a state of catatonia or being catatonic when touch was. Was happening, or even proximity. So that's something that I think is very common in the clients that we've worked with, particularly towards the beginning of the work. And something that often shifts. Yeah, that just sense of freeze, right? I'm freezing. She's approaching me, and I'm freezing up in my body. What the hell is that? And there's so many men that come to us, and they. And they say, I don't have this go on at work. I don't have this go on, you know, in my family of origin. But as soon as there's an attractive woman, I freeze. And I do think that that's partly related to all the things that we're talking about here and in it's. And it is related to childhood, meaning. Yes. Middle school, high school. Many men have bad experiences in that zone. And it is also related to family of origin. This is almost always related to family of origin. Were you touched enough as a child? Were you held? Were you soothed? Like you. You use that word. I thought that was so moving. Because touch is a primary way that you soothe an infant. You touch them, you hold them, you stroke them, you stroke their back. You know, you are supposed to be held a lot as a child. And for a lot of folks around the globe, particularly, I'd say in North America, they were not held enough. They just weren't held enough. They were left alone too much. There are a lot of cultures where infants are never not held. They're always held. They are not always held by the Bio parents. But in the. Within the tribe, within the village, they are always held. They are passed around. They are always held to someone's chest. They can feel the heartbeat. We are meant to be held. And I do think that there's. They're just. I don't know if I'd use the word epidemic, but there's countless millions of children, not just men, but children that just weren't held enough. And so they have often a state of anxiety or fe. Fear a lot of the time that they're carrying around. And again, it doesn't have to stay that way, but it is important to understand the origins and particularly for men. Since we are talking primarily about men, I want to talk about, you know, where this comes from. Where does this come from? You know, where does this fear come from? And I'm going to say more generally, not just fear of touch, but fear of women. And what we've seen a lot of the time is that it's not all the time, but I'm just gonna. We're just gonna roll with it for this. A lot of the time it comes from experiences with Mom. Right. What was mom like? And there are three main archetypes that we wanted to cover today with respect to what mom was like that we've seen in our work. And the first one is anxious, worried Mom. So mom herself is pretty anxious, kind of wound up maybe doing a lot of things at the same time, running around, hurrying around, and sort of her baseline state is anxious anxiety. And I have a few friends that had moms like this. And there's a sort of constant state of, I'd say vigilance.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And never a sense of relaxation. Right. All is well, we're hanging out, nothing's really going on. Right. This is going to be whether it's like, oh, does everyone have, like, the drink that they need? Is every. Is everybody okay? Does everyone have what they need? Or, you know, am I okay? Should I be doing something? You can feel the amped up nature of that. And for some women, that's how they're parenting. That's how they're parenting their children. And they don't necessarily realize it. Right. Because what their experience is just, well, the world is kind of scary. And I need to make sure that everything's put together and perfect so that I can be safe myself. Right. This is. I just want to be really clear. We're not blaming this kind of mom. We're just explaining these archetypes and then the effect of them. And this is one of the Ones that. That's the nervous system that this child or these children were raised on. That's the, that's the template that they were given. Can you share a little bit about what you've seen in your own, you know, friendships or our clients or anything? I don't think that your mom falls into this category. But what have you noticed about this?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, in a sense it's. It's a mom whose nervous system is stuck in a kind of sympathetic activation. Vigilance, like you said, is the right word for it. So there's a lot of fear dropped driving her, just fear in her system about the state of the world or things that might happen or worries about this or that. And I mean, what's key about this then is right as kids, we regulate towards our parents nervous systems. So if our primary feminine attachment figure is anxious and in fear, there's a certain amount of that our nervous system takes on and mirrors. It's hard for us to just relax as a young boy if mom is totally wound up all the time. Right. And so we get used to being in fear. Right. What's she afraid of now? How do I have to show up in this moment to help soothe her fear? Again, what starts to happen is the, the locus of attention moves onto her and the state of her fear in anxiety, in worry, in a sense. And what it can create is, I mean, in some sense like a superpower in certain guys who are extremely sensitive to the state of a woman's nervous system there with. And so there can be this vigilance. Then we as adult men are bringing in and afraid of what she's feeling. Is she anxious right now? I don't know. Is she like. We start to replicate our mom's energy in how we're feeling this. Is she okay right now? Is this. Did I do too much of this? Did I do too much of that? Should I have done this? And we're in fear of her fear, in a sense, and her anxiety. And we assume her anxiety is in a way like the truth, which is one of the problems all three of these archetypes we're going to talk about get into.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And there's the thing I want to point out here about enmeshment, which is that I really liked the way that you phrased that just now that we come into the world as loving beings and love is what drives so much of our behavior, including what we're talking about here, which is that I love and care about my mom and I want her to Be well. I love and care about my mom, and I want her to be okay. And that becomes, when we are not aware of it, codependence. Because we are dependent on her state. And so we're busy regulating her so that we are also okay. And this is also kind of known as enmeshment. And what we. What we also see that we don't necessarily want, right, is independence. Independence, which is, I don't need anyone else. I'm an island. And this isn't necessarily a conscious thought, but it's a pushing away of dependence, right? There's codependence, independence, and what we want, what we're looking for, the ideal is interdependence. And interdependence is I actually do know how I feel and what's going on inside me and what I want. And I am also attuned to you and what you need and what you want. So there's a dual situation happening. I am aware of myself and I am aware of you rather than I am only aware of you. I've sacrificed myself completely. All my attention is going to regulating you. And most parentified children were raised that way. So most parentified children have to learn how to come back to themselves. How am I feeling? What do I need? What am I wanting in this moment? Because the tendency, if we don't do any consciousness work, is just to sacrifice ourselves and do everything for the other person so that they're okay. That's what we were trained on. And that's, you know, another. Another way of saying that is codependence. And ideally, through the work, like you said, working that muscle, the atrophied muscle, we become interdependent, which is, I do need you and you do need me. And we are. We are interdependent. It's not independent. I don't need you at all. We all need each other. We all need love. We all need affection. We need it just as much as we need sunlight, air, food, shelter. We need love. We. We die without it. It slowly sometimes, but quickly other times, you know, we can't. We can't live without it. So I think that that's something to keep in mind as we're going through all of these archetypes is that we're not saying, you know, don't need anyone. It's, you know, we're not saying that. And we're also saying enmeshment is not healthy. And what, what will happen if you don't do your consciousness work is you will repeat the patterns of Your family, period. If you don't do an intervention, that's what will happen. If you were raised in a securely attached home, great. Then you're going to repeat that most of us were not. So sometimes it takes something to get there. Any other comments on that? Anxious worried mom before we move on?
Jason Lange: Just that, you know, I think you'll see this pattern as we go on here. Oftentimes then in particular, the thing we fear than in our feminine partner is the state our mom often held. So, oh, if she's anxious, that's like my greatest fear. If she's angry, that's my greatest fear. If she's sad, that's my great. And I will do whatever I have to to try to make her not feel that. And we're going to kind of dive into those here.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Thank you for speaking to that. I really appreciate that. Because what you're talking about there is conditional love.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Melanie Curtin: I will love you if you are successful at sports. I will love you if you are successful at this musical instrument that I have selected for you. I will love you if you get straight A's. And if you don't, I will withhold my love. That is conditional love, and that is inherently anxiety producing. Right. Inherently, it's stressful because we need love. We need love. We will do anything to get it. It's a need. It's a human need. And I can't tell you how many clients we've worked with this kind of pattern that again, the parents don't realize they're doing half the time. They don't understand. They want their child to be successful. They think this is what it takes to be successful. So I'm going to nudge them or direct them in this way without realizing that the message the kid is receiving is you're only worthy of love if you are perfect. And that is exhausting. And that will lead to fear of not being perfect. And so then you're contorting yourself in all these ways to be perfect for your partner so that you will earn love so that you will be loved. Okay. Um, and then the last archetype is depressed, dissociated, absent mom. And dissociated can also be related to addiction. So could be a substance, could be an activity, but something where mom is there, but she's not really present. So she's emotionally absent, whether she's physically present or not. And she's kind of depressed or down or just dampened in some way. Right. She's not truly alive. There's not aliveness vibrating through her body. She's not moving in that way. Um, can you share a little bit about what that one is like?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it occurs to me that part of doing consciousness work is growing up. The parts of ourselves that weren't grow up. And it's totally possible. It happens all the time. We witness it in our men. I've witnessed it in you in the years that I've known you. I've seen it in myself. And I really want to validate what you're saying about. Oh, man. A man who can actually be with me, just be with me in my expression is very rare and very hot. Just want to say that. So as we're starting to wrap up here. I do want to say that we still have a few spots left for our live retreat that is happening at the end of August. I think when this recording drops, it'll be in three to four weeks from when this recording drops. And if you want any info on that, you can go to Evolutionary Men Retreat. And I just want to say, if you're thinking about coming, it will move you. You will be moved in some way. And all of the things that we're talking about here are relevant. Everything. This. This. This is the kind of thing that we work with at the retreat. This is the kind of thing that we work with in our program in Pillars of Presence. These are the kinds of things that we're working with. Mental health and. And it works. Yeah. Anything to add?
Jason Lange: It's also a lot of fun. Come hang out.
Melanie Curtin: We would love to see you there. Evolutionary Men slash retreat or Evolutionary men slash apply. If you're interested in coaching. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
