During my conversation with Melanie Curtin on her podcast Dear Men, there was this moment where I found myself describing what I call "invisible loneliness" , that specific kind of isolation where a man can be at a dinner party, laughing with friends, even lying next to his partner in bed, and still feel completely alone. The silence that followed told me we'd hit something real, something that's quietly eating away at more men than we want to admit.
One thing I wanted to call out is what I call the myth of the lone wolf. There's this image in men's culture of the rugged individual who doesn't need anybody, right? The guy who just does his own thing, totally self-sufficient. Sounds powerful. But here's the thing: in actual wolf packs, a lone wolf isn't some badass rogue. It's a wolf that got kicked out of its community. And those wolves don't do well. They die faster.
We talked about how men will often stay in relationships that aren't working, sometimes even abusive ones, because they're terrified of being alone. Without other solid connections in their lives, it becomes this binary choice: either stay with this person who isn't right for me, or face complete isolation. That's a brutal position to be in.
Covid accelerated all this, but it was already happening. The way our culture is structured, especially here in the US, everything pushes us toward isolation. We're in our cars, in our houses, on our phones. We think we're connected because we're scrolling social media, but that's empty calories. It doesn't do for our nervous system what being face to face with another human being does.
Read Full Transcript Full episode text for reading and search
Jason Lange: There's men that I have, I've met, I've talked to, I know that take pride in the fact that they don't have a lot of connection in their life. Oh, yeah, I'm a lone wolf. I don't need anybody. You know, I just do my own thing. And it sounds cool, the lone wolf, right? Like, the image of it is like the rogue, powerful wolf just doing his own thing, totally free. But, you know, an important thing to note is in the actual wilderness, a wolf that is alone is one that was ostracized from this community and they don't do well. Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think the. The felt sense, the experience of loneliness is. I just want to paint a few pictures. So one of my guy friends lives alone and works from home, and he has, I'd say, like a decent job that he's. He's okay with. He's not in love with it, but it's a decent job and he likes his coworkers fine. But to your point, a lot of the interactions that he has with them are surface level. So there are interactions, but they're not deep and they don't feel deeply connected. And then he logs off and for him, he said, I don't get the Sunday night scaries. I get the Friday night funk. Like, I log off at 5 or 6 or whenever. And then I'm kind of like, okay, I guess I'm gonna make dinner by myself and watch something by myself. And I think that's just the. Yeah, that. That felt sense of, of loneliness is, Is just blah. Like there's a sense of blah. And I'm. I appreciate what you said about loneliness in connection. Right. It can be lonely to be in relationship as well. You can be. You can be lonely in a relationship. You can be lonely, be lonely anywhere. And I think as a single person, myself, who spent much of my adult life not partnered, I would also give a kind of special shout out, I see you. I see you. Single people, single men who are having that experience of maybe the Friday night funk or, you know, just not having connection in your physical environment. Right. Having to seek it out. Right. It's not there. I guess I just want to say I. I see you and I feel you. I feel, I feel that. And they think that there's a lot to be done about it. Like I keep saying, we'll get into that, but I guess I just wanted to say that I. I understand, I understand that experience and it's real and it's. Doesn't have to stay that way.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And there's. So there's another thing I've. I've kind of talked about in some of my work before, which I do want to highlight here, and I call it the myth of the Lone wolf. And so this is where some of masculine men's culture can. Can really kind of make this worse. And there's men that I have. I've met, I've talked to, I know, that take pride in the fact that they don't have a lot of connection in their life. Oh, yeah. I'm a lone wolf. I don't need anybody. You know, I just do my own thing. And it sounds cool, the lone wolf, right. Like, the image of it is like the rogue, powerful wolf just doing his own thing, totally free. But, you know, an important thing to note is in the actual wilderness, a wolf that is alone is one that was ostracized from this community, and they don't do well. They die faster.
Melanie Curtin: They die a lot faster.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. That feels important because it does feel like choice goes up, right? When you're more connected, choice goes up. And a lot of the time this is still true, Right. Many people are meeting on the apps and dating through, through that, but people are still meeting in real life. And a lot of those people are meeting through their social connections. They're meeting through the people that they are socializing with. And you know, back to the health thing for a minute, I just, I really want to shift the, the topic of health from food and exercise to food, exercise and social connection. These are the three pillars. Food, exercise, social connection. How much social connection are you getting? Are you getting enough? It's almost like vitamin D. It's a, it's a big part of life. It needs to be part of our mindset, our world. In your day, have I gotten enough social connection today? Particularly if you don't cohabitate with other humans, if you don't live with people, if you're one of the people who's living alone, I think it's really important and you know, yeah, to your point, just the, the willingness to tolerate misery goes up when you're lonely. So, you know, if, if you have more connection in your life, then you're going to feel safer to make better decisions for yourself. Better choices. And as I was prepping for this episode, I think I just wanted to give another shout out to divorced men. You Know, I see you if you had a, a family unit and that structure needed to shift. So if you got your own apartment, you got your own place, you moved out or you're co parenting with someone or maybe she moved out, but you're not, you're no longer, you no longer have that structure. I can't tell you the number of men that we've worked with who, you know, on the weekends that they don't have their kids, or the weeks that they don't have their kids or their, that structure is missing. They're, they're kind of beating themselves up like I didn't get enough done this week or I just, I couldn't pull it together. It's like, yeah, because you were lonely. Like give yourself compassion for. We weren't meant to live and be alone all the time. So loneliness is a real thing. It really does impact our whole body, mind, your brain, your everything. So just know that you, you are having a real experience. You are not just not doing it right or not doing enough or all of those. Like, let's let go of those stories because this is such a big part of, of life. We were meant to live within a social fabric. You know, your point about the structures is, is, is actually a really big deal. And you know, the people that are close to me in my life know that I'm really passionate about co living and finding new structures and ways of cohabitating that are healthy and can include more people. So that it. We don't just have this binary, I live alone or I'm doing the nuclear family thing in the suburbs. Those are perfectly legitimate choices, but they're very limited. There are a whole bunch of folks that don't fit into either of those or it's not the healthiest structure for them for a bunch of reasons. So I want there to be more structures that are more inclusive and, and we'll kind of get into that. Something I did want to. Yeah, something I did want to come back to was that, that the man box, right? That I, the idea what you just laid out about the, you know, the man box of I should be. What is it like the Marlboro man or whatever?
Jason Lange: Like the rugged cowboy lone wolf, the.
Melanie Curtin: White guy on a horse with a Stetson. That's the hat, right? Or is that a cigarette?
Jason Lange: Yeah, no, it's a hat.
Melanie Curtin: The hat. And how incredibly pervasive that is and just tenacious, right? That idea is so tenacious and it's reinforced in movies and TV and just. It's not, it's not healthy. It's unhealthy, and it's held up as an ideal, and it's. It's not. It's not healthy. So I'm wondering if you can. Can just share a little bit from your own personal experience of. Of that kind of, you know, being in the man box and then kind of breaking out of the man box and how that affected your levels of connection, just to make sure we cover that, because I really do feel like if I were a man, I would feel like I should, quote, unquote, should be strong enough. Really. Like, I'd have some language around it. Should be strong enough to handle this. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Thank you for speaking to that, because I think that that's been my experience with the vast majority of men that I know and that I work with is men need connection, then they want connection, and they're. They're craving it. And they have been shamed for that in the past. There's a lot of shame in our culture. The shaming of boys, young boys and tweens and teens is real. And it comes from peers. It's not just teachers or it's not just authority figures. It's peers. It's the culture itself. So the other thing that really struck me that I wanted to come back to was loneliness is related to authenticity and being able to reveal and feel safe and held in your revealing. So I can't tell you the number of men who've come into our program, and even after just one call, they're like, wow, I didn't know. I just feel so much less alone. Just listening to the other men share is a revelation. Holy. This is a space where I'm going to be safe. This is a space with other men who are safe and so many boys. I especially feel for boys and young Men learn very early not to reveal and not to feel and. And definitely not to reveal feelings, right? That that's, you know, the ultimate sign of weakness. So they're just holding in years and years of stuff and feeling alone. And I think that you're. I wanted to come back to, you know, your share about being a virgin and not feeling safe to tell your guy friends that. And so you might be with your guy friends having a great time, but there's still a way that you were lonely because you weren't really revealing this major part of your. Of your life, of your heart, of what was on your heart, what you were thinking about, what you were. Were feeling about what you were staying up considering and running scenarios and maybe shaming yourself. You were alone in all of that, right? You weren't able to reveal your authentic self. And I think that's something that I've witnessed. And we're going to start to move into sort of solutions here or ways to bring more connection in. But something I really. That's really struck me, a pattern that I've witnessed in our men, is they'll come into our program and they'll start working and getting help and expanding and growing. And what I see is that as they are witnessed in their fuller selves, right in their cells and accepted by our community and loved, there's a sense of wholeness and there's a sense of. What's the word? Like, I can almost see their spine straightening up, right? It's like they were a little bit hunched and now they're. They're actually straightening up. Sometimes their eyes actually get brighter, their chest expand over time, not just in one session, but there's a sense of. Of vitality, of solidity, of comfort. And I'm not just talking about single men. I'm talking about men in partnerships, too. I'm thinking specifically about one of our married men in the program. Now there's a sense of wholeness that comes on and of. Of confidence. I'm just going to use the word of confidence. Genuine confidence. Not. Not stupid, not arrogance, but confidence that feels really good to be around. And because of that, because of that sort of, they're able to reveal and be held and seen and witnessed in their deepest self. Because of that, they're then able to take bigger risks in the world. So what the. So my point, and this is our first. There are three concrete things we came up with in terms of how to bring more connection into your life and how to address loneliness if you're lonely. And the first One is get help. Get help. So particularly if you're severely lonely, but even if you're mildly lonely, getting help. So bringing in structures of support, sort of, you know, therapy, coaching, personal growth workshops, you know, just help, that kind of help. I think it's foundational because to your point, Jason, when you're lonely and you're not resourced, it's. It's almost insulting for someone like me to say, well, just go to some meetups. Like, if you're really lonely and you've been chronically lonely for a long time and you've not felt safe to reveal or share, be yourself. You don't have the energy. You don't have the energy. You. You can't get just quote, unquote, just get yourself out the door. Because it takes a lot. It takes a lot of effort, and it's risky, emotionally risky to do that, especially alone. Right. It's different if you're going to an event with a friend, but if you're trying something out, taking risks by yourself, that takes a ton of energy. So getting help is the foundation that's underneath everything else that we're going to talk about. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that, you know, yourself in terms of your own journey. Because to me, that getting help for you and for a lot of men does start, sort of start with men's work.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And I just want to be bluntly clear on something. There's no shame in paying for help. So again, this is some of the man box crap will come in of, like, well, if I'm paying for it, you know, is it a real relationship? And you just got to let go of all that. Yeah. I paid for therapy. I paid for coaches. I initially paid to be in a men's group. I paid to go to workshops. I paid for the structure of someone to help me with this stuff. And oftentimes what we're paying for is the structure of relationship. Right. I pay a therapist, so I know that once a week I have somewhere to go and be relational with someone. Right. They're carving that out of their calendar. There's no shame in that. In my mind, that is something that is a worthy investment that has paid massive dividends in my life. Massive dividends. So getting that kind of help, it does. It makes it easier. Right. Because then you also have someone who's tracking you and you can be checking in about these things as you do, then continue to expand your horizons. Right. I know a lot of guys who, whether it's with us or their therapist, you know, will suggest something, then they go, try it. And it's a lot easier when you have someone to talk to afterwards about how did it go? Like, what was that experience? Oh, that one sucked. I didn't like that. But I did actually like this thing. You know, there was one cool person and then someone's like, well, great job. You know, you got out there. That's like a huge win. That makes a big difference. A big difference.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. It occurs to me too, that this is all connected to stigma around mental health. Because it occurs to me that no one has any shame hiring a personal trainer, right? There's something. And it, and it struck me too, generationally. I really love Ted Lasso. I was watching Ted Lasso and I was struck by the general generational differences between how we view therapy. So therapy is becoming more therapy and personal growth in general are becoming more and more accepted. And there is still a sort of. There's stigma around it. There is still stigma around it, particularly with older generations. So anyway, I just wanted to say there isn't a difference between paying for support of this kind and paying for support of this kind. But we have a perception of that. So I appreciate that. And I think that's something that when I look back at my life, I feel very proud of how much money I invested in my own personal health. And when I say personal health, I'm really talking about this, right? Therapy, coaching, personal growth, workshops, like all of this kind of thing. I feel like I front loaded a lot of it. And I feel like it was the best investment I could have made in my future because all of these skills are what leads to healthy relationship. I'm talking about intimate relationship, but friendships also. And when you look at the research, social connection, connection is one of the very best things we can do to keep ourselves healthy for the rest of our lives. So it's not, it's not this floating thing out here in space. It's like, no. Getting your house in order, getting help, getting, you know, essentially helping your body, mind unwind from trauma from the past is basically the best investment you can make in your health. And it's, it's, it's a found, it's a foundation. So getting help was the first one that we came up with, which is really important. And it's sort of like the base level, this must be in place in order for you to have enough energy and to. And to feel safe enough to take some risks. And when I say take some risks, I'm thinking about one of our men who joined a salsa community, so started taking salsa dancing lessons and that was a big stretch for him. We've actually had multiple pillars, multiple clients who've, who've engaged with the salsa, the community. And I really love what you said, Jason, about having people to come back to, right? Having a community or, or coach or whoever, safety to come back to, safety and accountability to say, yeah, I went, it was really scary, but I did it. It's kind of exciting. You know, I haven't been that close to that many people in a long time. Sort of edgy. Here's what I'm working on now. It's, I have, it's been one of the biggest joys to me of watching the men that we work with stretch and grow in different ways in, in this level two. So level one is get help. Level two is get connected to a community. To a community. And so for some people, that's their climbing gym, right? They love going to the gym and they meet people and when you go regularly, you get to know the people at the desk. They have, they, they're going to have a party for the upcoming holiday. You know, being around a community on a regular basis is, is elemental to human culture. It's what we've done forever. And when I say get connected to a community that can be around a passion or an interest like salsa dancing or climbing gym, things like that, it can also be a healthy religious community. Now, many of our men, many of the men we've worked with, have come from toxic religious communities. And I'm not talking about that. But there are healthy religious communities. There are healthy faith based communities. I'm thinking of Unitarian Universalist, non denominational. But there are places where you can get connected to small groups, right? Or even volunteer activities is another one. So volunteering at a community garden or tutoring program or a homeless shelter or what was one of the ones that we were looking at was working with a client the other day. We're looking at, oh, a food bank. A food bank. So one of my friend's mothers, she's in her 70s and she volunteers every Friday at the food bank for four to six hours. And so she drives around dropping off pallets and she has a sort of different collaborator. So they put two of them in the truck every time. So she's gotten to know a lot of people through that, through that, just through that network. Just showing up, up every week, doing a thing, showing up every week, doing a thing will connect you to community and you got to be healthy enough to be able to do that. Right. You have to have the energy to be able to do that. Which, so it's all, it's all connected. But another one of my friends is really involved in the pole dancing community and for her that's a primary source of connection. And because she's gotten close with women from her studio, they'll go to the beach on a weekend together. This person's having a going away party, this person's having a shower, this person's having a birthday. Just getting connected to any community like that leads to other social connections and love, really. I mean, I wasn't expecting to say that word, but it's true. Just like we are built to connect with each other, so if you hang out in a similar space with other people enough times and you're available and open, which brings us to point number one, then you're gonna make friends. It's a thing that we do. It's a thing that human beings do. We get connected to each other and then we're like, oh, I, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. I could use some help moving this weekend. Are you free? Like you get, you get into community and. Yeah. Is there anything that you would sort of add to that piece?
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I would say prioritize the events or spaces where you can go on a regular basis. So community gardens, places where it's like, yes, we have volunteers every Friday, Saturday, Sunday or whatever their hours are. Pick a time and a day and go regularly if you can. Because that's really when we build community, is when we're seeing the same people again and again. So you want to be prioritizing those kinds of activities. It really, really helps. And I'm thinking of another one of our clients who's very into hiking and mountaineering and he would go to mountaineering events and meetups and, and sort of with regularity. And then he kind of organized his own right, and brought some people together around hiking, a specific place he wanted to go. And he was glowing when he described it. It's like, oh, I generated connection, I generated community. And for, for this man, he had been experiencing a lot of loneliness. So the contrast between that was yeah, really just special to witness. So I think that's something that I, I've really come to, to value is just when we do put attention on shifting our lives, our lives shift so we don't have to stay in a certain state. We're not stuck. No matter how much we feel like we are stuck, we don't, we don't have to stay stuck. And you and I have witnessed countless men then become unstuck and start moving and being excited about life again from places of deep, deep darkness. I mean, the deepest darkness you can really experience as a human and coming out of that. So it's possible. Okay. And then point number three, very close to my heart, which is a way of bringing connection into your life, is consider co living. So the co living movement is still growing and there's lots of ways to do it. There are, you know, structured communities. There are, there's sort of like putting a house together like I've done for a lot of my life, like get, get some people together and co live in a house. You can get a bigger house. You know, I think this is, can be an intimidating concept, but I know that, you know, some of our men have, have made shifts, shifts in terms of their living environments specifically to have more connection. And this includes, you know, co living for me, can also include sort of moving closer to people that you care about. I'm thinking of one of the things that I've often wanted to help create is actual properties where there are multiple structures. So, you know, one person is in an Airstream and then there's a yurt and then there's. But then there's a big farmhouse or whatever it is, so that we can, we can live a little bit more simply in a different way and have a lot more connection available to us. Because if you're in the Airstream and people are like, hey, we're putting a movie on, you know, in the, in the farmhouse, you just walk out and across the yard and you're there and it reduces a lot of friction. So be open to that possibility. Be open to co living and, and it doesn't need to be elaborate, it can just be co living, you know, getting a place with a friend or two. But just being open to that possibility I think is, is pretty powerful. And there's a lot more structures coming online. As we're, as we're sort of starting to get wise to the fact that this is a huge, huge deal, this is a huge thing, this is a huge issue. But I think just being open to it and available for the possibility of co living is tremendous because even just a few meals a week with someone is better than none. Every little part makes a difference. And this isn't about co living, but I would just throw it out there that they did a study about, they did a study on commuters and these were folks that were doing a commuter rail somewhere on the east coast in that northeast corridor. And they had them predict, you know, do you think that you'll be happier or less happy if you speak to the, the commuter next to you kind of thing. They had them sort of predict connecting with someone versus not. And most people said, oh no, I'm going to be happier reading my newspaper or scrolling my phone or just doing my own thing. And then they, they had, they had commuters actually talk to people, right? They had people get interaction and have a chat, 10 to 15 minutes, no more than that, not very long. And they were consistently happier when they connected with someone. So I think that co living isn't exactly related to this, but I'm throwing it out there because it's something that I've also noticed in our men is that as our men have grown and shifted and transformed and kind of opened up in general and become more comfortable with themselves. There have been more micro interactions that feel, Feel good, feel human, feel connected. And those add up, right? Those add up. Those small moments during our day are not only a way that we can feel fed ourselves, but they are a way we can feed others. Because I think that's something that I forget a lot of the time. I think a lot of us do is if we're having a lonely experience, a lot of the people in the room we're in are also having that lonely experience. Right. Even if we're quote, unquote, just at cvs, like, there are a shitload of lonely people in the world. I mean, those statistics were alarming at the beginning. You know, 44 of men feel lonely all the time. Like, that's a lot of people a lot of the time. So I think that the spirit of openness and the spirit of connection to serve others is another way that we can kind of get our needs met at the same time and generate more wholeness in the world. Yeah. Any comments about that?
Jason Lange: I think we're gonna start to see more structures like this just emerge. And, you know, if you look outside the US you do see a lot of them already existing in terms of how towns and villages and so many things are structured. And, you know, I think that's big. Part of the work abroad for a lot of people is, yeah, it's cool, you get to go somewhere nice and fun. But there are also places that. Where people tend to go, they're structured around community just because, you know, if they're an older part of the world, there weren't there cities that were created before there were cars? So streets are the size of humans, and when you walk on a street the size of a human, you meet other humans. Like, this is just stuff we see all over the place. And that however, you can get these little bursts, like you said, you know, whether it's being the one to talk on a train or, yeah, just getting your roommate or setting up, you know, just some structures in your week of, yeah, it's Friday night, dinner night, right. Or movie night or whatever that might be, where you can kind of start to create some regular structures for your friends or community. Or as I often tell guys, like you said, if you're feeling lonely and you wish something existed, there's other people that are lonely wishing that thing existed. And so one of the greatest things you can do, you know, when you've got some help and are feeling a little more energized is lead it, create it put the flag in the ground. Yeah, I'm starting a hiking club, or I'm starting this, or I'm starting movie night, whatever that might be. And then you just start inviting people, right? You see who comes, who comes, and it takes time, but it's such a valuable thing. You know, we had one client, I remember, who, right, was going to Pub Trivia Night and he was getting a lot of community there. And then he was like, wait, why don't I just host Pub Trivia night? And became the host and his community exploded even more because then he was kind of the guy that everyone sees every week and, you know, oh, yeah, that was a funny joke and, you know, people coming up to him and all that kind of stuff. So it was a great example if he kind of stepped in to. To take it to the next level.
Melanie Curtin: I really appreciate what you just said too, because as I'm going to read a quote from the US Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy. Our epidemic of loneliness and isolation has been an underappreciated public health crisis that has harmed individual and societal health. Our relationships are a source of healing and well being. Hiding in plain sight. One that can help us live healthier, more fulfilled and more productive lives. And the reason I thought of that Hidden in Plain Sight is a while ago I did, yeah, I had a connection with a friend where every Tuesday night I went over to her place and we watched an episode of show. We picked a show and we were watching every week and I think the show was only 30 or 40 minutes, but we connected for like two hours. But the regularity of it, right. Every Tuesday I go to her place and we do this thing. The regularity of it gave me something to look forward to during the week. It was a, you know, it was a place I knew I was going to get connection and good conversation. And it was fun. Fun. It's fun. Like, I feel like so many of us are missing fun in our lives. That's a whole other episode. I'm genuinely thinking of doing an episode with the author of a book called Fun. I feel like the subtitle should be are you having enough of it? But yeah, there's something about Hidden in Plain Sight, right? The connections that we already have in our lives. If you think of it like a garden, cultivating those is really important. Bringing in new ones is important as well. But if you do have, have, you know, some connections in your life, already, making some of those more regular, you know, I actually just instituted that with a friend of Mine who has a family, right. She has, she's married with children. She, she's quite busy. They're young, they don't have a lot of time. So I go over there once a week, help a little bit with the kids, have dinner with them, we watch a show. And again, the regularity really helps because otherwise we get busy. People's lives are busy. They're not, you know, know, they're sort of underwater, trying to manage their life. And I'm kind of out here a little bit more like lonely with lots more time kind of thing. So I think that's something that, that can help is sort of see what social connections already exist in your world and, and, and cultivate them like fan the flames, figure out a way to make it regular every week. Right. Somehow. Because it really does make a big difference. It really does. And having it on the books, it's, it's a, it's something you can plan around Everything, everything helps. So I think we're going to start to wrap here. Unless there's anything else that you wanted to cover about that last section.
Jason Lange: No, no, I think that's beautiful.
