244: What if what makes me good at my job makes it harder to date? | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: A lot of the men we work with, yeah, they're coming because they're like, I want a better sex life. I want more connection with my wife. I want to date and not feel out of control or, you know, like, it's just not working. Or I'm getting first dates, but I'm not getting second dates. I don't what's going on. One of the things that I've seen repeatedly is that as they're growing, it's. They're not just growing in that one area of their life. It's not just about, you know, sexuality and, and connection and. And romance or relationship also tend to start making healthier choices around their job. Hello there. Just a quick note before we start. I am sorry to report that I had a family emergency this week, and so I wasn't able to conduct the Patreon Q A. So apologies to all of my patrons. I really do apologize about that. I'm sorry that that was missed. And for those of you that are interested in our monthly live Q and A's, if you join as a patron, if you join our Patreon at a dollar a month level or more, you have access to that. And there's still time this month, February, if you want to get in on that, because I had to to postpone this week, that will be happening next week. So if you want to get in on that, just Google Patreon Dear Men podcast should come up right away. And if you do any level 10 or above us, you will get access. So look out for that email for the. For the Patreon call next week, and I will catch you later. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode. Always love to have Jason on the pod. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Good to be back.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So today we're talking about when what makes you good at your job makes it harder to date or be in a relationship or just relate with the feminine. And this is something that we've seen in some of our clients, and we've also witnessed some pretty remarkable transformations around, and it's something that, yeah, we've been wanting to touch on for a while because it's a little bit amorphous, it's a little bit not quite tangible, and we wanted to kind of bring it into focus. So, yeah. So basically, there are a few traits that are required of certain people in their jobs that actually make it harder to connect or be in an intimate relationship and show up in a way that feels safe to women, that feels inviting to women, that feels exciting to women. That sort of opens things up rather than sort of shuts them down. So we're going to go through some of those traits and what we've noticed and we're focusing a little bit more on the traits rather than the professions or the jobs themselves because we're seeing these across professions. And I think that's, that's sort of like the most important part. Anything you want to add before we get into some of the traits?

Jason Lange: Yeah, these are just some, some patterns I've recognized in myself, in my own journey, in the different work I've done in clients we've worked with. And like you said, we'll, we'll give some examples of some different professions and jobs and instances. But as we talk about the deeper things, we're, we're kind of leaving you space to fill in the blank and hopefully connect light bulbs of like, ah, some, some lights to go off of. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's part of my job. I need to be more aware of that. Etc.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So there are basically two big ones that have come up over and over. And one, the first one is jobs that require you to hide your emotions. So we live in North America. Jason and I live in North America. And the overall message to men is still if you show emotion, it means you're weak. It's an unconscious thing in our culture, and it shows up everywhere. And it's patently false. You know, it's not actually true. And there are, you know, a lot of jobs where you are required to hide your emotion. And it's, you know, it really has ramifications. It's actually true. You know, it's not that you're making it up. Like it really does affect how coworkers see you, how managers see you, how clients see you, whether that's, you know, patience in a medical context. We have a bunch of men in our program who, and who have gone through our program who are medical professionals. Software engineering comes to mind. There are a lot of professions, law enforcement, scientists. There, There are a lot of places in our culture where the unspoken rule is don't show your feelings, don't share your feelings. Hide your feelings, Hide your fear, hide your doubt, hide your anxiety, hide your love, hide your, you know, sort of. And I'm wondering if you can speak at all to that in your personal experience of how that showed up for you professionally, if it did, and then what that translated to in your love life or, or perhaps how it impeded.

Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. Yeah. I think this is a, a pretty big one that it's kind of like an Onion layer here as well, because there's also the greater context, like you're sharing of the patriarchy and what's expected of men here in. Well, in most of the west and most of the world of. Yeah, we're generally not rewarded for being in our, our heart. And a lot of times, other than sports and some specific professions, we're not actually generally rewarded for being in our body. We're most often being rewarded for being out of our body. So, you know, there's a lot of great equalization happening in the workforce and whatnot, but a lot of the most toxic jobs, like grueling manual labor jobs, still tend to fall on men. And that's one where we're like, yeah, you can sacrifice your job or your, your body, right? And. And so they're. They're actually encouraged to not be in their body somewhat. And even some of the sports, you know, all the stuff that's coming out now about American football and whatnot, I think is like, oh, yeah, like it destroys men. It actually destroys men. But going back to the emotional part, because that's certainly what I've experienced and actually it even ties in, now that I think about it, to another thing. I spent some time after College in my 20s as a caregiver in a group home for teenagers and young kids with autism. And that was an environment where I learned very quick. It wasn't like anyone was telling me, you know, you gotta hide your emotions. But if I came in in a foul mood, those kids would immediately attune to that and like, energetically, they would feel where I was at and it would actually cause them to act in more challenging ways. And so I had to really quickly kind of learn to just disconnect. Just when I'm in there, I am there to serve, right? I'm there to serve and be with these kids. And I am, you know, was easier for me as an enneagram9, like open spaciousness and just, I can hold space for you and I'm not going to be reactive. But that was something I learned pretty fast of like, okay, like for my job, I actually can't fully bring all myself if I'm having a hard day or something like that, because it'll come back to me in a weird way. And that's when I think a lot of anyone in like a caregiver or oftentimes even a service job. You know, when you think about here in America, where we're so reliant on tip culture, right. Someone could be a total ass to you but as the server, you're going to try to keep up a certain. Because if I don't, I probably don't get paid and I go home with like almost no paycheck. So I'm going to put up with a lot. This is where the medical profession, people in the medical profession, I think, often have to do it, where again, it's when you're in there with patients and their family, like, there's just not a lot of space for you. And for guys we know that work in the really high intense, like life or death situations, being in your heart is actually not generally an option. Right. Like you, you, you, you can't be breaking down and crying all the time and whatnot. It just makes the job too hard. Right. Makes it really too hard. So there's like a, a learning to kind of armor up in some sense in jobs like that in particular. I think this is one also probably people in law enforcement have to deal with just anywhere where you're dealing with people where the stakes are pretty high and you're holding a role that society has kind of given you in some sense. There's often that, like, yeah, it's better to not be in your heart here.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that there's, there's something, there's something here around maturity and what is appropriate and what's not. So we're not. I want to be very clear that part of what we're saying is that this is laudable. This is, this is a good thing. There are, there are moments, there are professions, there are places and times when it is important to keep it together. It is actually important to curtail emotion for that period of time. Now, part of what the problem is is I have friends in the medical profession. We've had a lot of clients in the medical profession. And part of the issue is the energy still has to be moved. So it doesn't necessarily have to move in that moment. You're in the room, you've lost your first patient. This is a big moment for a lot of people in the health, in the health care profession is losing someone or witnessing someone go through a huge loss, grief, holding a lot of grief in the space, whether that's for the family or the patient themselves, just that experience, or even honestly holding space for a close friend of yours in the hospital who's going through that. It's not always appropriate in that moment for you to break down or, you know, have a, some kind of emotional release. But it's also a problem if you never have that Right. If you never have that emotional release, if there's never that, what is it when you take the valve off, when you take the pressure off, like a release valve release. Yeah, that's a problem. And so what we have found and what I have found is that when that's not present, when there's nowhere that you have, when you don't have outlets, when you haven't gotten that into your life yet, that's when you're going to see numbing, numbing activities. So whether that's porn and masturbation or alcohol or other kinds of substances, cannabis, weed, you know, the intensity of those moments, the intensity of those jobs, if your job is high intensity, there's a certain processing of that emotion, of that intensity that needs to take place. And I think that our culture is extremely, extremely poor at supporting people through that. So, for example, in the therapy profession, I think therapy and therapists are another place where they're holding a lot of intensity. Some of the stories they hear are very intense. And there's something called supervision in therapy where when you're a licensed therapist, you are required to have a supervisor. So a place and a space dedicated to you processing what's going on for you in your job, where you're processing the difficult cases with someone that's more senior than you. And physicians and nurses don't have that. They don't have supervision, they don't have support groups, they don't have dedicated spaces where they come together and they help each other process this kind of intensity. I believe it should be part of that profession. It should be a codified part of the profession, a dedicated space to help discharge some of this intensity, process some of it, help with the mentoring, all of that. I don't have the power to do that. But my point is that the professions where you're holding a lot of intensity and stress and it doesn't have to just be medical, for example, lawyers, I'm thinking about lawyers or other professionals that are holding a lot of stress and intensity. What we find is that it tends to build up in the body, that, that, you know, there's the joke about people in high stress professions getting ulcers. I guess it's not a joke, it's a reality. But my point is that it does. It's not that it has to go that way. It's not that if this, then that, like if you're in a high stress job, you will get an ulcer. It's that if you don't have a place to process that, if you're not processing it, then what happens is you're storing it in your body. You are holding that tension and that stress in the body. And what my experience is of men as a woman who dates and has sex with men, and this is where it relates, is that there's a certain kind of blankness or it. I feel a certain sense of. It's hard to describe and put into words, but blankness or numbness or just, you know, he's trying to connect with me, but I. It's. It's hard. It's like there's a wall or there's a. It's like there's some intangible thing that's kind of like in the way. And it feels like I'm trying to get close, but it feels difficult. And I think that part of that is just the accumulation of all of that stress and intensity and. Or what he's doing to numb that is getting in the way of the connection. So there. There's a double whammy of, like, the intensity in my body is so big that I need something to numb it. But then the numbness is getting in the way of connection, of actual connection. And I think that we've talked about this in other episodes of the ways that we try to regulate ourselves, try to regulate our body mind. For a lot of men, porn and masturbation is part of how they are attempting to regulate their system to kind of like, yeah, get that release valve. And I know that's been part of your story, so can you touch on a little bit of how do you feel? Like that porn and masturbation habit that was to help you regulate your nervous system. How did that affect your dating and sex life?

Jason Lange: Took a lot of time and energy, for one, away from it. Because, you know, for me, that tended to be something that would happen late at night, and I'd stay up later, and then I wouldn't get as good sleep, and then it's spilling over the next day, and I'd be more stressed out and would kind of just become like a rolling pattern. And sometimes it was easier to do that than to put myself together and go out and socialize if I was stressed out or exhausted from different jobs or different things. So that was a big impact as well, because it would actually narrow my range of opportunity for making connections in and meeting people. And I think, yeah, there's the. You know, when we don't. When we don't deal with the intensity of what we experience at work and we don't have a Safe place to process that. Yeah. It either stays in our body or as anxiety, which you can feel. Right. We can feel when. I can feel when I'm around men who are very anxious in their body and are very stressed. Right. There's a little sharpness or like a little bit of jitteriness. I can also fear the next level, which is more my style of, like, when that gets too intense, there's just like a disconnection. I just, like, I'm just. I'm just not even really here in my body. And I think that's, you know, another version that you've certainly experienced before. And so there's. There's on the one hand that of like getting the tools to learn to process and move. Intensity is super important. And, you know, as a culture where I, you know, it's so crazy to me. We've just been through three years of pandemic, putting incredible pressure on our healthcare industry and just nobody's talking about. Nobody's talking about. Yeah. What's it like to go in day after day, year after year and see people, sick kids. Anyway, it blows me away that there's just not concern at that level. Then there's. There's the other piece too, I think you were speaking to as well, that I just want to point out that's subtly different of. It's not just the intensity of the emotion, but it's just actually being open and available and receptive. So some jobs require you to kind of close your heart a little bit to do the job. And I think where that can be an issue. Again, it's not that you're not. You can't ever do that in your job because sometimes it is entirely appropriate and necessary. It's. If that becomes a habit that you don't track, you lose sight of the capacity to unwind and not choose that or to be able to choose something else, let's say in a relational moment with someone you're dating or someone where it's like, okay, my. My heart's habit is just to kind of be closed and distanced and a little bit reserved. That's fine in my job, but what we're speaking to here is it's incredibly important to then intentionally cultivate the capacity to. When you want to open it back up and reveal things that are happening for you and invite people into where your challenges are, what's going on in your life, what your opinions and perspectives are, depending on certain work environments too. Right. Like, there's not really room for. So it's the Importance of having space to move, the intensity of those experiences and being able to basically take off the armor when you're not on right. When you're not on the job, to be able to take it off and put it to the side when you don't need it. And I think what we've seen before in some of these high intensity jobs in particular, like the medical profession, are that that's not developed and instead there is just the alcohol or the other things. And so then they start getting into relationships and their partners are having a really hard time trusting and feeling them. And I think that's because they haven't learned to, oh, I got to put that aside with her or with my partner, with my kids or with my family and open here. And then when I go back to work, I can kind of put it back on.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and I think that's a good example too of. It's interesting because I think a lot of the, the men that we've seen go through the program that, you know, what you were talking about with the caretaking is something I've noticed is feeling invisible. Like a lot of the men that we've worked with, there's a sense of feeling invisible. They don't even necessarily know, you know, who am I, what are my preferences, what do I want, you know, what do I even want for dinner? Some, you know, I'll be with my woman and it's like, I don't even know. I don't know. And I think that there's a way that sometimes our, that man's work life can, can exacerbate that pattern. So if you're always giving to others or if you're always doing for others, there's not as much focus on yourself and what you want and where your boundaries are. And that can even show up, you know, with how much you work. So, for example, I'm thinking of a man who, you know, went through the program and just gained a lot more of a sense of himself and his own needs and his own boundaries. And there was a weekend when his boss called and said, hey, I need you to come in this weekend. And he said, I'm not available. And he said it was the first time he'd done that in his life. He'd never, ever done it before. And his boss was like, oh, all right, yeah, I'll work something out. I'll figure it out. He didn't get attacked, he didn't get shamed. And of course, sometimes that does happen. And that's when you evaluate is this the right, you know, manager, is this the right position, is this the right company, et cetera. But in this case, it's like part of, I think, the growth edge. It isn't just the intensity of the job. It's also, where are your boundaries around the job? How are your boundaries around the job? And, you know, you were relating. Maybe you can share another client of ours who started to set some boundaries around his own sleep. Right. Prioritizing his sleep. Can you share a little about that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, this one actually touches on a couple different things. So I think another thing, again, the medical profession touches on this. But there's all kinds of jobs that also have very unpredictable or very intense demands for when you're on the clock or what your schedule might look like, meaning your schedule might be unpredictable week to week. So we have a lot of guys who sometimes have that, and it can be very hard to create a thriving structure and routine for themselves. And one place that really shows up often is sleep, is just being able to sleep. Whether that's the most intense version, which is doing night shifts, something I did at the group home at different times, in retrospect, I'm like, wow, really did mess me up. It messed me up in all kinds of ways. I put on all kinds of weight. I was just not in a healthy state. And we have guys who have had to deal with that. And, you know, what I'm thinking of is one in particular that a couple years ago had, you know, had had a pretty intense kind of nursing job where you. And they tend to bundle their shifts together a lot of times in those professions. And so when you have time off, you have time off. And then it's like, you know, the gauntlets coming up.

Melanie Curtin: Right?

Jason Lange: And he. It was like, I think a Saturday night, you know, his friends were all going out. He was a little younger, and they tended to drink and have a good time. And. And then he would spend Sunday recovering from that and not have any sleep. So then he'd go right back in Monday. And anyway, it was just a mess for him. In one of the biggest boundaries he set was on a Saturday night, he decided to stay home and go to bed early. And that was something he had never done before. And so he woke up Sunday refreshed, had a very enjoyable day rejuvenating himself. And then by the time he went into work Monday, he was actually resourced. He was resourced. And that's the kind of job that, you know, a lot of these jobs, nobody's going to take care of you for you. And so it actually takes building a capacity for. Whoa. I have to take care of myself with my boundaries around sleep and health and scheduling. Like, you got to build that capacity to be able to really nourish yourself long term with some of these different types of jobs to make sure you're doing well in your body. Because, again, show up tired and exhausted on a date or in a relationship. I've done that. I. I do that sometimes with my wife. And when there's nothing in the tank, she feels it immediately, I feel it immediately. And sometimes I have to be like, I have nothing in the tank right now to be able to do this. But that's a big deal with a first impression or someone you're just starting to meet, and they're like, wow. So wait, even when we spend time together, your work's kind of here then? Because I can feel your work impacted our ability to be with each other here in the moment.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I was gonna say, I want to draw a direct line between what you said and relating. I was with a man recently, and he. And it was sort of like what you described right there. He. There was a night of heavy drinking, and then the next day, he was quite flat, just, like, not really present. And I was kind of like, trying to reveal something or share something about my life. And I just felt this, like, lack of engagement, just like, blah sense of just, like, flatness. And this lasted all day.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: And so he wasn't really present, and he wasn't really available to connect. For connection. For connection, for conversation, for love really to flow. And it caused a fight. Like, I was pissed. And it wasn't because. It wasn't because of the drinking. It was more like what the effect of that was. And I think that's really part of what we're getting at, is when you do have ways to process and discharge energy, you are more present and available for connection. And connection is really what the feminine wants. I want your presence. I want your connection. I want you to be available. I want you there. And if you're not, if you're holding so much tension in your body that your leg can't stop fidgeting, I don't feel seen. Like, I. I feel like I'm trying to regulate you. You know, I'm. I'm kind of holding the masculine pole in that sense, because I'm like, I feel your anxiety, I feel your tension. I feel, you know, I'm. I'm attuning to you. And so then I feel like I have to somehow Protect myself or guard myself or, you know, I didn't feel held at all by that man on that day. I felt very much like alone. And so I think that there's, I think this is a conversation that we need to be having as a wider culture as well as, you know, this particular episode about how this affects relationships. But there's a, there's a very direct line between how well a man is taking care of himself and how well he is able to take care of a woman's heart. There is a very direct line between how well he can take care of himself and how available he is to hold her. And I think that's something that a lot of men miss is they're like, oh, no. But like, I'll do anything for her. I'll show up, I'll, I'll do all the things. I'm here, I'm here. They want to be there for her. But it's like if you're, if your basics aren't handled, if you're not taking care of yourself, you don't have this part handled. It doesn't matter how good your intentions are. You literally don't have the capacity. You have to actually, like you said, have a fuller tank. You have, your battery has to be charged for you to be able to hold space for her. So it's not just about intention, which I see a lot in men, is like, I want to be there, I want to be, I want to show up. It's like, that's great. And this is actually what you need to handle. Like, you need to get enough rest. You need to figure out how to discharge stress after work. You need to have great male friends. You need to have, you know, you need to go to the doctor, you need to drink enough water. You need like, you need to water your plant to be a tree for me. I can't do it for you. And I think that that's something that gets lost because a lot of our conversations around sex or love or relationships are about the other person rather than your self care is critically important to how much you can do for the other person.

Jason Lange: You're totally responsible for the energy state you show up in with a partner or a date. And if something isn't conducive to that, that's where you have to decide, you know, what's my priority in life in big way. You know, we see this also in just, again, you know, time management is something that some jobs make harder of setting boundaries around. When am I available for email? When am I available for calls. How much do I work in general? Because, you know, another thing, we have a lot of guys come into us with some who are already in relationship or married or some who are single, is their job, is their everything. And then there's literally no space or anywhere in their life for passions, for activities, for connection with other men in community and nourishing themselves. And if they're in a relationship, that sure as hell already has impacted it. And if they're not, it also impacts it because then as, as we'll start to talk about soon, that also limits your ability to meet people and, and to, to have like a vital life that someone can feel and want to be a part of. Right. When, you know, when 90% of your energy and your thoughts is around your work, you're, I mean, I, I just, unless it's a pretty incredible job and you're well integrated in it. Like when it's just work stress, it's not very attractive. No. Like when people can feel you carrying your work stress everywhere lands people can feel it and it's like, ah, yeah, I don't want to talk about that again. Can you be here with me now? What about now? I think is some of the key things with that in that in general. Yeah, it's just really important that. So you may have an intense job or a tough schedule and you may choose that and stay to continue in that and thrive in that and be great at that. And, and you're going to have to meet that with certain responsibilities for taking care of yourself and your life and the structure you have around it if you want to be in a good space in particular to date and attract a new woman into your life.

Melanie Curtin: Yes, and I think that's a good example of this is. You know, we've talked about somatic therapy before and the somatic therapy that you and I both get is network spinal analysis. That's one of the ones that we get. And I remember watching a few videos about network early on and there was a, there was a psychologist, there was a psychotherapist that they interviewed. And he said I was noticing that the stress and anxiety I was carrying from my sessions, holding the space for deeply intense stories was starting to come home and I noticed it was affecting my home life, my, my relationships, my, my kids with my, with my partner. And so he started getting network weekly, on a weekly basis. He got a support structure in his life that helped him discharge intensity and metabolize it and integrate it and actually use it as fuel for growth instead of this Anxious thing I have to numb so that I, you know, don't explode. And I thought that was a really mature, clear minded way of looking at it, of I'm noticing this is affecting my life. I'm going to bring in a support, I'm going to bring in a structure that helps me discharge in a healthy way on a regular basis or for other people. It can be exercise, you know, it can be dance. It. It's not about necessarily finding the perfect thing. It's about experimenting, listening to mentors, bringing other things into your life that can help with this process because it's worth it. It's worth doing that. And our culture sucks at teaching about it and talking about it. And it's to our detriment that that's true. The other big one that we've noticed in terms of traits, you know, how does work affect connection? Is being in your head, right? Professions that really put you in your head. So I'm thinking about folks that work from home on their computers all day. Maybe this is, you know, finance, software development, coding, programming, you can feel free to jump in, but just there are a lot of jobs now where you're on slack or you're on teams or you're, you know, you're online all day and you. And to make matters worse, a lot of people, a lot of our men are working from home and so they are not getting a lot of social connection. They're in their head and there, there's this imbalance of spending that much time cogitating, thinking, analyzing and you know, you've spoken eloquently on this, of just physiologically, you know, you're hunched over your computer all day and you're, you know, unless you're really mindful of your spine and you know, you can relate to this, you know, on a personal level. What, what is that like for you? What have you learned about that as part of your job? Because it arguably is a lot of your job.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. I mean before I was a men's coach, I also had, you know, quite a bit of time invested. I was an information worker, so I was like a coding websites and stuff. And we've worked with a lot of men who have done that. I've known a lot of men who have done that. Whether it's, you know, computer programming specifically or. Yeah, just more general information work, even a lot of artistic work now is done on a computer in that way if you're a designer or something like that. And these things can require an immense amount of attention, like cognitive Attention as you're figuring things out, but that really require you to be in your head. You know, I think certain types of engineering, chemical engineering, different things again, there's a certain type of like ability to be fully present in a lot of cognitive load that were are generally often well rewarded jobs but really require you to be up in your head. And that's something I've experienced a lot. And there is the physiology of that. So at a computer, like I'm actually not at that right now in that I'm at a standing desk because I've learned I need to be able to stand and I sit sometimes and I stand sometimes and I have to take movement breaks. That's that was hard. Learned knowledge of what it's going to take for my body to thrive and getting trainers and people to work with me and seeing the impact of my body of like sitting in a chair hunched over a computer for I mean hundreds of thousands of hours at this point has a massive impact, massive impact on my body which again then had an impact on how I felt in my body, how I showed up on dating those jobs. So they require you often to be in your head. And men who are good at that type stuff get attracted to those jobs. And the thing that's increasingly happening with those jobs, which is even a bigger shift since you know, I was kind of in that world in some sense is yeah that you used to have to go into an office to code and do that kind of stuff. Now the whole world is kind of post Covid moving to a lot more work from home. So you know, I'm seeing guys in men's group and interprogram show up who are working from home. So there's no office to go into. They don't have to leave the house. They're at a computer the whole day and they're doing heavy cognitive load work. And then they're wondering why they're struggling dating. And one piece of that is yeah, they're actually spending all day not in their body. That's a big one. Another piece of that is then they're not around anybody to socialize or meet. And something I noticed in that time is that the, there's like a gear switch between heavy cognitive load work like that and relational being relational. And it was too much of a shift oftentimes from being build flip to think about, oh my God, now I'm going to go to this party where I'm going to meet people and I've literally been alone for two days in my head doing things. And so I think there's a thing I've experienced where men like don't have. It's just too big. Like they haven't been around anyone and suddenly they're in front of a woman and it's like the first relational space they've been in in a while in physical place. And that can be super challenging. Super challenging. And those jobs in particular I think are just some of the ones we're really wrestling with a lot now that they're isolating. They keep you away from community. They require you to really be good at self care. Right. When you're at home and the refrigerator is always there and you don't have to go to the gym, like there's just so much required there. And just like with the medical profession and what we were talking about earlier, there's that capacity to know how to take the armor off our heart. If you're not careful, it's really easy to get stuck in your head permanently. So your job requires you to be there and then you're out on a date and. And you're just still not in your body. And as we've talked about, attraction happens. Like it's an actual energy and physiology. Phys. Physiological sensation in our body. If we're not connected to it, who are with is absolutely not going to connect to it. And that's where a lot of guys again that we work with and in these information spaces kind of have the nice guy vibe and get a lot of the just friends or ghosting or no energy coming back. And you know, my belief is yeah, a lot of that's because they're just not in their bodies and their jobs are not conducive in their bodies. Right. What they're, what got them their jobs is that they're great at being in their heads. They're great at figuring this stuff out and it has to be met with and matched with being able to get into the body.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's one of the most remarkable transformations I've seen in a lot of our clients is the amount of aliveness that I notice in them. It's like I can actually see. I'm thinking about one of our clients who at the start of the program, his eyes were only open so, so far so wide. So you know, there was a certain level of sort of diminished capacity or like dull dullness I guess. And by the end of the program it's like his eyes were literally open wider. His eyes were more open. And this man had kids, he was divorced and it was so remarkable, because he had started doing cold plunges. He had found a group in his area and was starting to do some local men's group stuff and was doing some cold plunges. And he was just. He was taking more risks. He was. He was more alive. He was just more alive. And so witnessing the transformations that are possible. Because I think that we're painting a pretty bleak picture of some of these professions. And I just want to make it very clear that if you are in one of these professions or this sounds like you, you don't have to stay there. That doesn't have to be your permanent place. It's. We have seen time and again pretty remarkable transformations in not that long of a time. And that's one of them is I've just seen man after man after man kind of come alive, come awake, become more present, more engaged, more just healthy, I guess is the word. Just healthier. And, you know, one of the. One of the interesting things is that the way that that particular, you know, form of coming alive has impacted different men in their jobs has shown up differently. So, for example, I'm thinking about one of our men who dropped into his body more, was taking more risks. He was married and was taking more risks in his relationship and leading more, figuring out what he wanted and leading from what he wanted instead of what everybody else wanted, not sacrificing himself as much, etc. And it wasn't very long into the program that he got a promotion. And I think it was in part because the way he was showing up in the world had shifted and people were noticing. People were noticing, co workers were noticing, you know, people he worked with. There's something about a man who is in his body and is present that is deeply trustable. Like you said, there's a level of trust that comes with that that's earned. You can't fake it. It's like it's felt. It's a felt sense in the body, being around someone who knows who they are, who's standing on their own two feet with a straight spine. Like there's. There's something about that. And that was exciting because I think it was. I think what he said was something like, I know that I deserve this. I got this promotion, and I know I deserve it. And it feels really good. It feels aligned. You know, it just. I could feel his sort of pride and his. Honestly, his masculine power. It felt like that. That is masculine power. And this was not a man who would have said, I feel in my masculine power at the beginning of the program that was not, not where he was at. So that's one way. And then I'm curious if you have any other examples of what like a transformation that you've witnessed.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think another thread I just want to speak to here which is related to, you know, particularly these information processing jobs or heavy cognitive jobs is sometimes what makes a man good at it and thrive in it is hyper rational mind or. Right. And we have definitely seen men come into the program from that space and then really be struggling to connect with women in particular. And so there's, you know, one of the things that inspired this episode was just this idea of like, oh man. Yeah, so. So for so many guys, what makes them really great is at like cracking a piece of code or something is not actually generally conducive to relating to a woman in the same way. And that, that, that again, thing that a lot of the patriarchy kind of tells us, men, you know, hyper rational, you just no emotion, you figure out the best solution and you just move forward with the problem. Like there's a way we've had men come to us that are approaching dating from the same way. Like they want to figure out the perfect formula and then they think it's all going to just work, which again, that's actually coming from the head and they're spending most of the day in their head. And that's where the challenge can, can really often be. So what we're kind of talking about here is you don't have to get rid of that. None of this stuff is like bad per se. It's that when it's the only tool in the toolkit, that's the problem. So being able to come out of that hyper rational and even just through some of the work we teach men realize, yeah, the feminine part of anyone doesn't want to really relate in a rational way. A lot of like, that's not what's going to create the juice, the connection and the good sex, frankly. It's these other skills and capacities that, that we teach men that often do begin with just being in your body and being more connected to your impulse. So we've definitely had men that, you know, I think it often starts with, as I say to guys like, you got to do an audit of your life and where are you in your body during your week? And if you're not anywhere in your body, you need to get into your body and start finding ways to get that. You know, we just had a celebration from a guy recently, right. Who just joined JIU jitsu, something that was on his mind for a long time. And there was something about the container in the group that finally had him actually attend a class. And he loved it. And he was lit up. And I was like, that's the kind of being lit up in your body that's going to be very attractive to a woman. Very, very attractive.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. Can corroborate that is hot. It is. It is hot. And it. And it isn't about the activity. Like you said, I don't care if it's jiu jitsu or it's improv or it's salsa or, you know, it's not about. I do actually think martial arts are quite hot, but it's not really about that. It's about what you just said, which is the lighting up, right? Musical instruments. There are some men that have picked up musical instruments or gone back to musical instruments that they've left, you know, they had left behind before. But it's that, yeah, it's that feeling. It's that sense of excitement and excitement and challenge, right. It's like, oh, I'm learning a new skill there. It. This is a physiological truth. When you do novel stuff, you get dopamine. When you do new stuff, when you're mastering a new skill or mastering a skill you've been doing, but it's a new song, it's a harder chord, you know, whatever it is, you get dopamine, you get dopamine. And if you add physical exercise into that, then you get endorphins too. So on a straight up level, we're talking about health, essentially. And I think there's something really remarkable that I've seen repeatedly in our group, which is that as men are listening to other men's stories and they're getting a sense of feeling met, like, oh, I'm actually not alone. And their shame story is held when they're held in a container, a safe container, with other men. And I'm not a man, but, you know, and a safe woman. Something happens where I think it's almost like their aliveness is allowed to thrive more. So there's. It's like being in the right soil, right? And so the plant is able to grow. And I think so I think there's something really special about group work, community, safe community, Safe masculine, healthy masculine community that provides the kind of underpinnings for what we're talking about and the kind of transformations we're talking about. So it's really all of these things coming together. And one of the things too Is that as men drop into their bodies and become more connected to their own sense of self, they tend to make healthier choices in general. And so a lot of the men we work with, yeah, they're coming because they're like, I want a better sex life. I want more connection with my wife. I want to date and not feel out of control, or, you know, like, it's just not working. Or I'm getting first dates, but I'm not getting second dates. I don't mean what's going on. One of the things that I've seen repeatedly is that as they're growing, it's. They're not just growing in that one area of their life. It's not just about, you know, sexuality and. And connection and. And romance or relationship, but they also tend to start making healthier choices around their jobs. So I'm thinking of one of our men who left a job that he felt like the values weren't aligned. Like, basically he didn't like his job. And it wasn't because he didn't like the work. It was because he didn't appreciate the culture, the people, the way that they were managed, the manager, the co workers, the way that. That trickled down, just kind of clicky and obnoxious and just didn't feel good. It felt bad, didn't feel good. It was, like, financially okay, but it wasn't. It just didn't. It didn't align with his values. He was like, this place doesn't feel good to work in. And when he was more numbed out, that was kind of okay. Or, you know, he was tolerating a lot of. And as he came into his body, went through the program, he was like, yeah, I'm getting a new job. Like, this isn't. This actually isn't healthy. I'm realizing it does affect me. It affects my mood. It affects my sense of self. Like, who am I to be working at this place that this doesn't. Doesn't feel right? And so he left, and he was much happier with where he ended up because it felt like a better fit. Just better fit. So I think there's an. And of course that affects his sex and relationship life. Of course that affects his dating life because he was a lot more excited about who he was working with. He felt more connected to the team. He felt more engaged in the. In the work. It wasn't necessarily different work, but it was. He was honoring his truth. I guess that's where I'm going with it, is because he was in his body and because he felt supported by a community, he was able to take risks that I think before felt like, oh, I wouldn't be able to leave. What would I do? Or is it really that bad? You know, all the kind of stuff that happens in the noise versus like, no, I feel bad in my stomach every time I roll up to work. Like, I feel the dread in my body because I'm in my body now. I'm like, yeah, this is not, this is not right. Because our body minds are constantly giving us information and important data about what is right and what is not for us. And then if you're not in your body, you can't hear that. You can't hear. You can't hear the information. And it's directly linked to relationship because in a similar fashion, the men that have been in their bodies, they're like, yeah, I went on the date and it just, it didn't feel right. And I think I saved myself a world of pain by not pursuing this woman that in the past I probably would have, you know, and she kind of reminded me of my exact versus, like, yep, now I feel it in my belly. Or I felt really safe with her. You know, I felt really safe with her. I felt a whole different level of connection. And I'm, I'm moving forward. Like, I'm, I'm pursuing her because this is, this is what feels right. Anything you would add to that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, just that I think there's a, you know, we, we do tend to see men we work with take more risks in their lives. And I think that comes from two things. One, like you said, it's actually when we're in our bodies, often there's no way to deny what's true. And so there's like an uncovering and a realization of, oh, yeah, I've been just disconnecting from that gut crunch every time I go into work, but now I'm really with it. I, I can't keep doing that right now that I fully acknowledged it and I feel it in my body. So there's often like a, which can cause like some bold action sometimes of like, wow, I'm finally in my body, so I'm finally actually feeling how much I'm in suffering around my job or my work or, you know, whatever that might be. And then there's also, you know, kind of the, I don't know what really to call it, but like the, the, the, the viral path forward of just like a man takes a risk and does something and it's like, well, he did it. And then another man, like, steps forward and takes, like a little risk. And there's just seeing. There's something about seeing men, you know, their lives improve. That kind of suddenly is like, well, I don't have to just keep doing the same thing either, right? Which doesn't necessarily mean you have to, like, up and change your job. It can be restructuring, asking for a raise, setting more boundaries, reconfiguring child care. Like, there's all kinds of things that can be inspired around to do that again, make it easier for you to be in your body, in a nourished place, connected to yourself, having activities that bring you energy and passions and community. And when, like, all of that's online and swirling, that's when men are most attractive. It just, it's just, it's just the case. And some jobs, like we've talked about, sometimes make it harder to be in that kind of glowing place, right? Where I'm present, I'm available, I'm alert, I'm nourished, and, And I'm. All my attention is not going to my work. My heart's open. Like, I have these capacities online that. It's just that certain jobs, you know, they reward something that doesn't necessarily translate to benefit in dating. And what we're talking about here is that's fine. You just then need to bring some of the appropriate medicines to your life to. To be able to show up in those ways.

Melanie Curtin: And essentially part of what we're talking about is balance, right? There's a sense of balance and a way of. You know, I remember one of the episodes that Violet and I did around a woman's kind of journey and our sort of side, right? And I notice when I am not dancing, when I don't have a dance practice in my life, I feel more flat. I don't. I don't bring as much energy and vitality and joy and to my partner, I'm not as. I'm just sort of like, blah, like I'm not as fun, basically. And so. And it takes effort. It takes effort for me to get my ass to the dance class, look up the dance classes, you know, make that effort and same thing. Spending time with quality, spending quality time with my girlfriends. I have to schedule it. I have to put it on the calendar, I have to go to the spa. I have to make the effort, and it's totally worth it. But I think there's a lot to be said like, like we're talking about self care. That's on both sides. This is not Just one side of a relationship, it's both partners are responsible for their own self care. And there is a way that we can take care of ourselves and take care of each other at the same time. And so I think part of what's present in this conversation is when you're balanced in your life, you are a better partner. When you're balanced in your life, you are a better partner. So you, you show up differently. And when your partner is balanced in their life, they show up better for you. So I remember I was, I do work with couples and one of the questions that I've worked with them on is what grounds you, what are some activities or ways that you feel grounded? And then they make their list and they, we talk about it so that each partner can help the other stay grounded. Right? They know. Here are the things that, you know, one of the things you said was really long cycling rides, like, and you notice your partner's been flat and you're like, do you want to go cycle this weekend? Like, I can take the kids. Or let's make it happen. Like, give you some space for that. It's like, because you know each other well and you can, you can be a team on that. I think that's sort of next level relating is finding these ways of balancing our lives because our culture also sucks at that and then prioritizing it, making it a priority. It's like, I love afternoon tea. I love the little scones, I love the little tartlets. You know, it could be looked at as like a luxury. Of course it is a luxury. I'm privileged to be able to do that. But if my partner knows that, they're like, hey, you haven't had afternoon tea in a while. How about that? This weekend I would, I think I would light up, like, oh, wow. Like, I feel seen, I feel known. And, and he knows that it might seem frivolous. I think that's, to me, that's the patriarchy is like anything that feels like it's about joy or it's about expression, or it's about life. It's sort of like looked down on. Like, oh, that's, that's not legitimate, that's not productive. That doesn't lead to more money, that doesn't lead to more, you know, climbing the ladder. That's like denigrated. When really it's like, but that's what makes us feel alive. Those are the moments. You know, it's like salsa, improv, like all these things we're talking about. That's where Health lives. That's where health lives, health lives in connection, vitality, movement. You know, life is there. And it does help balance these jobs, these challenging jobs where there isn't a lot of life, there's a lot of gray or there's a lot of fitting in a box, there's a lot of rigidity, there's a lot of demanding attention in a precise way which doesn't feel like flow like government. We had a couple men that work for the government that need to actually need to maintain a certain level of secrecy and it's required for their job. And so if they don't balance that out, if there isn't that balance, that's when you start to see these problems. And I find it inspiring to see, to watch the men that have gone through the program and watch them kind of, yeah. Come alive or blossom or just. It's so exciting to see what they come up with because it's their own power, their own masculine power, their own essence is guiding the way. What they are drawn to is the right answer. Right? There's, there is no, you should do martial arts or you should do acting, you should do. It's like, no, you should do what you, what your body feels called to do. Like that's the winning answer. That's the path. And I think that's been one of the joys of, of witnessing men as they grow is like, wow, look at what that guy's doing. You know, look at how that guy's showing up. It's like, it's exciting, it's, it's fun, I love it.

Jason Lange: And sometimes for a lot of men, it's actually doing the things they already know they enjoyed that they let go of and stop doing because their jobs or families and assumed that it wasn't as important. And that just brings up one last thing I just want to name because it's big thing. I work with guys and you know, I'm first talking to them on the phone and they're considering the program or who are men in the program. And some of them have pretty intense jobs or pretty intense family situations. And there's the. Well, I, I don't even have time for anything right now. How could I possibly do the program? And what I, what I just want to name about this is if you can't make the time to prioritize yourself and your self care, you've already lost in relationship because you're not going to be showing up and then I guarantee you're not going to be making the time to really show up and create time for the relationship itself. And this is such an important thing where there's a way, learning sometimes to take on more, but more that prioritizes self nourishment, connection, community, all those things we talked about. By doing that, whether that's, I'm not saying you have to do our program, but taking something on like this kind of thing by literally, by making the time for it and deciding, I'm going to do this, you're building that capacity and muscle in yourself to prioritize what's most important in life. Because like I said, nobody will do that for you. Your job will often try to extract everything it can from you. Culture, society. Like, you know, we live, we live in an intense type of capitalism right now, and you need to be able to make space for yourself. And as you do that, it also makes it easier to make space to be fully present with someone else. It's. It's the same muscle, as I like to say. So you're not just serving yourself, you're learning by serving yourself, but then you're serving potential or existing partners as well.

Melanie Curtin: And I think it's also helpful to point out that programs like this, personal growth work, whether it's our program or anything like is relational. So you are exercising that money up, that money that, that exercise of relating. Relating, being heard, listening to other people's stories, reflecting back to them, feeling loved by a group, feeling loved. You know, I can't tell you the number of men we've had come through the program who are survivors of bullying, sometimes intense bullying. And I want to tell you directly, I am so proud of our men that come to our program with that kind of background, because that's brave. It is a very brave thing to do. It's extremely courageous. Courageous to go back into a group of men and, and extend trust. That's not easy. So I see you out there, if that's your background, and you're like, oh, I don't know about a men's group. And there's just a tightening in your stomach and you're just like, oh, I don't know about it. We are a safe group. It is a safe group. And I think that there's. So there's a double thing of you're making time for something that's going to change your life, and you're practicing the relational skills that are in healthy relationships. So you're practicing them that you're exercising that muscle that you're going to use in your marriage if you're already married. Or in your dating life, if you're dating or whatever, wherever you're going, it's like, yeah, you're practicing, you're in the dojo, you're in the practice hall, you're trying it out, you're, you're working with that energy. So there's, you're getting nourished, you're being seen, you're being held and you're practicing the skills that you're going to need in a, in a sort of lower key environment. Right. Because you don't want to, you know, you're not looking to date the people in the program, but you're able to practice those skills in a, in a kind of a lower stakes way.

Jason Lange: Yeah. There's something I've experienced myself and seen in a lot of men when you have a sense of belonging with a community, you know, and I would argue with other men, but any kind of community where you really feel like you belong and you're accepted, it gets so much easier to go out and battle the world, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's so interesting. I was talking to a friend who's a parent and they, their child was having a lot of issues in their school and there was another education professional who said, do you think she feels like she belongs? Because we've been doing a lot around belonging at our school. This person was an education professional and it's really the foundation of everything we, we actually can't learn well if we don't feel we belong. And to make a long story short, my, my friend ended up taking her out of that school and putting her in a different school where she felt a lot more sense of belonging and she's thriving. So there is something about depth of belonging and finding that, creating that in your life, it leads to all the rest of what we're talking about. There's that foundation, like I said, of just. Yeah. Feeling that. And I think that sense of belonging really is the antidote to isolation and loneliness and all, you know, the epidemic of loneliness that we're seeing and. Yeah. So personal growth works. I guess that's what I want to say is it works. It does. And it's, it does. It makes our lives better. So. Anything else to add before we wrap?

Jason Lange: Just that, yeah, you don't have to quit your job if it's. Any of it has any of these traits we've talked about, but it is about taking responsibility then for what do you need to do to be able to show up most fully with a woman on a date in some of the ways we've talked about and other ones we didn't even have time to today. But that, but you know, we do work with men on in our program that this, it's all workable. It's all workable once you have the right tools and you have your attention and are taking action in the right ways.

Melanie Curtin: I love that. And if you are interested in our work, you can take our free training. If you want to go deeper than the podcast that is available at Evolutionary Men Slash Training.