There's this moment Melanie Curtin and I unpacked on the Dear Men podcast where a guy sees a woman he's attracted to, his heart starts racing, and then within seconds this voice kicks in telling him he's not good enough, not experienced enough, not worthy enough to even try. We talked about how that single moment of self-sabotage becomes the template for how so many men navigate attraction and connection.
We went deep on where this shame and self-loathing actually comes from. For me, it showed up as "I don't have enough experience" or "Why would she want me?" And the brutal thing is, it doesn't just stop you from approaching, it stops you from even considering that something might be possible. It's this self-made blockade that creates all these arrows of regret that guys carry for decades.
What really struck me in this conversation was talking about how shame operates like poison you're willingly holding in your body. And here's the thing, you can't heal it alone because it was created in relationship. Those external voices we heard as kids became our internal reality, and we often don't even remember where they came from until we start doing the work to trace it back.
Melanie and I also got into how this pattern doesn't just show up in dating. It shows up everywhere. In your career, your ability to ask for what you need, even the relationships you stay in way too long because some part of you believes you don't deserve better. The men's work piece is so critical here because there's something about being held by other guys, seeing yourself reflected back differently, that starts to rewire the whole system.
If you're feeling stuck in this pattern, whether it's keeping you from approaching women or keeping you in situations that aren't serving you, reach out. This is exactly the kind of work we do in our groups at Evolutionary Men.
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Jason Lange: And often what it is is when we're young, voices from the outside hit us hard that we don't have the capacity or defenses to, to, to inoculate ourselves against. And those external voices become internal voices. And we forget. And we, we actually forget until like a lot of the work we, we do with men and these shame stories and going into their past and starting to locate, like, what. Where did that start?
Melanie Curtin: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode. I am here with my fan favorite business partner, Jason Lange. Thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: Good to be back.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think this is such a great, huge topic and one that really touches pretty much every man we work with in some capacity. Um, and for me, you know, this stuff was in there. I wasn't super conscious of it for a large part of my life. Um, you know, I did a lot of men's work and they would often talk about this kind of stuff, and I'd be like, ah, I don't have that so much. And then, you know, in retrospect, I can see it now and then uncovered a lot in the last couple years. But from. For me, primarily where this showed up was two areas, particularly in my 20s, you know, when I was pretty much still a virgin. And it would show up as like, well, I don't have enough experience. Why would she want to be with me when she could be with a man who has more experience, is a better lover, etc. And at that time, when I didn't feel very healthy and I wasn't very healthy in my body, like, I don't even like my body, why would she like my body? And I. I think the thing that underlined both of those and a lot of the ones you just mentioned are it's like, as soon as this stuff kicks in, it actually prevents action from even happening. So it's like it just stops everything in. In the tracks and would stop me in my tracks from like, not even approaching, not even saying hi, like, not even allow myself to consider that this might go somewhere. It's like a closure in the moment of any possibility there. Totally initiated by me. Right. Whether or not that person would find those things true or not, no way to know. Because I would never even give myself the opportunity to find out. Which is where I think this kind of can show up as a freeze. Because it's just like a immediate truncation of any action because all this patterning comes in and it's like, well, I already know why she wouldn't. So why even approach.
Melanie Curtin: That's definitely something we've heard from our guys is, what's the point if I already know she's going to say no, what's the point of even doing anything? Part of the tragedy of this, and I think about this a lot, is, man, there really are a lot of missed opportunities. And I think that's a grieving process that we've seen a bunch of our clients go through is kind of essentially, we watch them overcome this pattern and move past it. And then you've mentioned this on a few episodes of realizing, wow, this is actually a lot easier. Like, relating with women is a lot easier than I thought that it was. And then realizing how many times in the past that. That they just didn't go for it. They didn't approach, they didn't, you know, they just froze and assumed, well, I'm not worthy, so what's the point? And how much connection that could have been, wasn't. And I think that's a special kind of grief. There's a quote about that, about, you know, the biggest things we regret in life aren't the things we did, but the things we didn't do. And I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about how it was for you. You know, looking back on all of those moments, you know, from where you are now and the personal growth that you've done now, looking back, how does that feel to kind of be aware of how, like, a lot of those women might have said yes? You know, I might have. Who knows? But if I had kind of taken some action, my life would have been different. What is that like?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, this is one I wrestle with every day. It is a particular kind of grief in that. Oh, yeah, there were opportunities there that some of them would have played out probably. Some likely wouldn't have at the same time, but I didn't even try, like. And that's. That's the kind of painful thing, which, in an interesting way for myself and definitely for some of the men we've worked with, ends up reinforcing all the beliefs to begin with. Because then it's not only like, that stuff, but it's also like, well, I didn't even try. So there's like the. The kind of collapse after the collapse. And yeah, it's probably one of the most common pains I. I talk to with men as. As we converse with them and they consider discovering or joining our program. You know, know, I like to call them the kind of arrows in the heart. It's like every little missed opportunity with a woman where we didn't approach or didn't really go for it, is like this kind of like, arrow of regret. Regret. And they hang out for pretty much ever. Like, you know, we work with a huge age range of men and all the way up to guys, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s, can remember those moments of like, oh, yeah, there was that one time. And in Retrospect, her energy was open to me and I can totally get now she was just like waiting for me to connect or say hi or anything. And, and I, I couldn't do it because I, I couldn't get past this internal stuff. We're talking about this kind of self made blockade that so many of us as men do. So it's real, it's there and, and it's a grieving and you know, part of what we'll talk about later in the healing process is even learning to relate to that grief is part of how we start to unwind it of like, oh, instead of beating myself up for not trying that or not making that move, it's understanding why, you know, what the roots of all that are.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think what I'll start with here is something I feel like we've talked about on the show before. We certainly talk about with our clients. But this idea, I honestly can't remember where I got it, but it's never left my head now of. It's often our self image, that's the last thing to catch up. So we can, like, be changing on the outside, but our inside is, like, always the same. Right. Even I remember a guy in our group shared an image of, like, I think, standing in front of a mirror, and it was like, I think, you know, you can imagine like a lion standing in front of the mirror. And in the mirror, though, he sees, like, a teeny little cube, and it's like his image. Our images of ourself often don't reflect reality. So for me, you know, it really started to change by getting reflections from others that. Oh, yeah, really? That's how you see yourself? That's not how I see you at all. And like, oh, interesting. And, you know, I talk endlessly about men's groups and the power of men's groups and how they, you know, became a huge part of my life. And that's one place I really see this show up strongly because as I like to say, you know, when six or seven other guys are reflecting something to us, oftentimes something positive or that they see or that they admire, we have two choices. Either we're like, well, they're all full of shit and I'm right, or wait, maybe I'm not the one seeing myself right, and all these other people are actually seeing something. Correct. And that's been a big opening for me, you know, over time, getting that reflection and learning to trust other people's experience of me as. Okay, that must be true because these people are telling me this. Right? And, and that's where the, all this work really comes down to though. Because it's that layer that doesn't let that in, which is the same layer that keeps us from acting. Right. It's that like, barrier that, that shield of, of shame or, you know, what we'll explore here. This kind of like shadow that gets in the way. So as I started to have a few more experiences with women and as I started to connect more with other men, I started to be able to see myself a little differently and just allow the possibility that, hey, maybe the way I see myself isn't the way everyone sees me. And it's like a subtle rewiring of the brain that just starts to take root.
Melanie Curtin: I like that, allow the possibility. Because I think that there can often be a gap between the mantra and the reality of how we feel. So for example, I fully and completely accept myself. If we're dealing with something like shame or self loathing, that's probably not going to work. Jumping to the opposite of how we're actually feeling doesn't work. But those interim pieces of I'm open to the possibility. I remember when I was working on receiving as a practice, I am fully open to receiving. Didn't work for me, but I'm open to the possibility of receiving. Worked for me. That was a mantra I could do. I'm open to the possibility of receiving. It felt somehow a little bit safer, a little bit, you know, more gentle. And I like that. I'm allowing the possibility that I'm worthy. I'm allowing the possibility that people find me attractive. I'm allowing the possibility that women might like me sometimes. Right. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be. There can be interim steps. And you mentioned the person looking in the mirror. I think it's important to just validate that for many, many men, and especially the ones that we've worked with, a lot of them have reported having the experience of, I look in the mirror, I feel like I look pretty good, and then I walk out into the hall and I see a beautiful woman, and I immediately feel like I look like shit. There's something pretty particular about the feminine gaze, right? The experience of being seen by the feminine, that can trigger our deepest shame. Right? That can trigger our deepest shame. And that's true for both sides. But since we're talking about this dynamic that for men who have sex with women, there's something about being seen or being evaluated or the feeling of being judged somehow by women that can be extra scary and, and super triggering. And I'm curious, you know, if you can, excuse me, draw us a line from which I think is a little confusing for some men sometimes, is why is it that working with men. Why is it that men's work and men's groups help with women? I think sometimes it's like, I don't get it. Like, shouldn't I be working on my dynamics with women? I don't understand where. Where is the line? How do you get from working with men and becoming more connected to men helps with confidence with women in your own experience and generally that you see.
Jason Lange: Yeah, the biggest word I get is, you know, training and practice is the first thing. So just even learning to become aware of the shame spiral or process that starts in me. Right. Let's say can't really change it and make other choices unless we're aware of it. And sometimes when we're really in the heat of it, it's like it happens and we're fused with that. And then it's the afterwards, like, we can kind of dissect it. And getting in groups and working with other men is a place where we get to really slow that down and where other people can often even notice the. The roots of it, of just like these little ways where our voice cracks or our posture changes, or we use certain phrases that. That are already kind of pointing towards that collapse and other men can. Can start to catch it and just say, hey, do you notice that when you say that you do that? Or, you know, when you talk about that, your body does this and there's like a, oh, wow, interesting. Which starts to bring us some healthy awareness and allow us then to play with that of, well, how could I use a different word? Or how might I be able to speak differently there? I think the other really powerful thing in groups is there's something about seeing it happen with someone else that makes it so much more obvious than to connect it back to ourselves. So it's like sometimes, right? Like, shame is often a type of shadow. Like, we can't see it within ourselves always, but when it's happening in someone else, we're like, whoa, man, you are being really rough on yourself, like, right now. Like, you would never talk to me like that, right? Why? Why are you talking to yourself like that? And then there's, like, a light bulb starts to go off for that man. And then often for ourselves, of, wow, I guess I probably do that with myself too, huh? And in a way, it's easier to see some of this patterning. I think, in others, and particularly in men's group, it's just a really safe place to see that. And because we. We have so much shared reality between us in the group, there's. Oh, yeah, oftentimes the shames you're feeling are the same ones I'm feeling. And then it's like, oh, I can start to catch that now. And if that man believes that about himself, and yet I know him, and it's not true. He's totally not like that. Well, maybe some of my beliefs aren't right either. And it can start that loosening and that. That kind of questioning of the process. And there's just something about getting into that space and having that kind of shared connection with other men that is profoundly healing. Profoundly healing.
Jason Lange: Time.
Melanie Curtin: It just has to be a little bit more of the time. And I'm wondering if you can share a little bit on your journey of what, what that was like, because I. Even when you met your current wife, it wasn't like you were at perfect self acceptance. You, you weren't. There's no perfect.
Jason Lange: Totally not. I think, you know, one metaphor for shame is it's like, it's like willingly holding poison in our body and then we go, you know, I would go out, I would try to do stuff to heal and move forward, and I'd be like, why isn't it getting better? Why isn't. But it's like I'm actually still holding that poison in. And there's something about that process of releasing these stories, sharing these stories. Connecting with other men in particular. But yeah, therapists, coaches around these stories. It allows us to start to let go of that poison. And so it's not like everything's fixed right away, but we get to experience, oh, there's movement again, like, like I feel an actual healing energy happening. And then that's often enough to just start taking some action right where it's like, oh, I can feel I'm not holding that bottle of poison in anymore. And my body is starting to, to, to, to handle itself in some ways to heal itself. And then when you put them in structures like we created, it really just accelerates it. But yeah, I mean, this was totally something I still had even when I got married. That would turn into our relationship dance and I would collapse into shame and I'm not enough and all, all that. And that's very much started to change, you know, over the last year or two in particular, where it's. I don't bottom out in that same way, might still feel a little bad, but it's like it's, it's such a differentiated experience now where I can feel that process happening inside of me versus I am that process just very different. And there's a way I can bounce back and be in conversation a lot faster now and just energetically hold it in a totally different way. And I've had to, you know, be digging deep on this stuff over the last years. And you know, one of the ways it really showed up for me, which I think is kind of tangential to what a lot of our guys experience in terms of nice guy syndrome. And for me it was really uncovering a deep belief I had of I need to be a good guy. I got to be a good guy who does the right thing and makes good choices, which I always thought was like a good thing. And it's not that it's not. But as I like last year went through some pretty painful, challenging stuff in my life and really had to look at that like, what, why, why am I so attached to being a good guy and having people see me as a good guy? And it was like a lightning bolt. It was like, well, I need other people to see me as a good guy because I don't think I'm a good guy. So there's this like, I have to like prove it on the outside thing. And that was like a ton of bricks that hit me of like, whoa, and where does that come from? And I trace that into some pretty deep self loathing that I'd really just held over the years of, you know, my worthiness and you know, even the, you know, the shadow side of men's work. And so much of this growth work is like this always got to be better, always like got to be growing and more fit and more conscious. And there's, there's like an intensity to that that I think sometimes masks over. Like no, sometimes you're allowed to just be a mess and have a bad day and not have your life together and be messing up. And like that's okay when you're giving it your best. And that, that's been a process I've really had to, to keep, keep working and keep unfolding and was greatly accelerated in its healing by literally being held by other men in that, you know, snot coming out of the face, like just totally collapsed in that and still having, having men see me and hold me through that and then actually see me even more on the other side of that. Like, wow, yeah, we really see you and imagine how hard that's been and then start reflecting the positive qualities. Like we said that often. I didn't let in. I think there's, that's another way you can think about this is when you're holding on to all that shame, it doesn't leave much room for anything else to come in. But when you start to let go of the shame, then the natural reflections of your community and your world and your people can start actually have a space to land inside. And that begins that, that rewiring which it was so potent for me. And so now there's just a lot more space, a lot more space around my self loathing and my shame where it's, it, it's like a part of me, but it's not me. I can like connect to it and talk to it. And this is stuff I often help, we often help our men connect to. And you know, I'm a big fan of naming these parts or making characters out of these parts and starting to learn to distinguish oh, that's not me, that's not me. And shame and self loathing in particular. Like, you know, we've worked with some guys who this stuff is in like incepted deep, so to speak. Like, like the movie, like the core. And the crazy thing is about this is not always but often. Like, like you said, shame is a social emotion. Self loathing is a social emotion, which means it's created in a relational context, which means you can't heal it alone, you have to heal it in that relational context. And often what it is is when we're young voices from the outside hit us hard that we don't have the capacity or defenses to, to, to inoculate ourselves against. And those external voices become internal voices and we forget and we, we actually forget until like a lot of the work we, we do with men and they shame stories and going into their past and starting to locate like where did that start? And it's shockingly often comes from a person or we can start to identify. Wow. Yeah, somebody actually talked to me like that and I was a kid, I didn't know anything better. So that became my reality, that became my programming or somebody didn't talk to me, you know, on the more the neglect side, which we've talked a lot about. And because nobody did talk to me, I had to make up stories about my presence or what it meant in the world. But starting to unwind those kind of, those voices is so key and it's really powerful in groups when we can do it and when we see other men moving through it, it inspires us to move through it and inspires us to go deep into these pretty dark places sometimes.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. There's several key things that you said. I think one thing I want to come back to is that sense of needing, needing to be the good guy, needing to be seen as the good guy. I want to come back to that, but I do want to address this pattern of where does this come from? Where. What is the root of self loathing? And I do think that if you haven't, if you're listening to this and you haven't yet listened to our episode on childhood neglect, I encourage you to because what I have seen repeatedly in the men that we've worked with is that many times the self loathing actually comes from neglect. And I'm not talking about necessarily physical neglect, although that, that can be part of it, but just just not being seen, not being seen by caregivers. Like really, truly, you know, some of the phrases that have come through of like, yeah, my parents never really had time for me or you know, they just weren't around that much or you know, I spoke to a guy recently where, yeah, dad was, dad was physically around. Sometimes he would come home from work, but then he'd be in the garage a lot or so he was around, but he wasn't really around. He wasn't, he wasn't present. He wasn't actually providing any attention or nurturing or guidance or just presence. And so what happens, and we know this developmentally with children, is that somehow that experience of not being seen has the child believe, well, there's something wrong with me, there must be something wrong with me. And this is not a logical leap. This is not something the child is even aware that they're creating as a story in themselves. But it's very consistent that children of neglect will often feel, I'm not worthy, my needs don't matter. Right? No one's asking the child like, how was school? What's going on with that friend? How are you feeling? They never get asked, how are you feeling? So they don't learn how to articulate how they're feeling or even know how they're feeling because there's no one there to elicit that and to coax it out of them and help teach them, here's how to be a human, here's how to emote, here's how, here's how to do the human thing. And so they're kind of left to their own devices to just sort of make it all up. And very consistently what we see is that yes, the freeze response comes often from children of neglect. The self loathing core often comes from children of neglect. And I think when we use that word, neglect, we tend to think of it as someone that's locked in a basement or they weren't given any water. And what we see in our work is that's very rare in, it's much more likely that you were physically taken care of and emotionally neglected. You were physically taken care of and emotionally neglected. And that I think for a lot of our men, and especially for us witnessing their process, there's so much compassion there. There's so much compassion of there really wasn't anyone around to help you and to guide you. I think what I have seen, thinking of one of our clients in particular, and this is very true especially of folks with alcoholic or other kind of substance abuse parent, is there was a light bulb moment of him realizing, wow, yeah, I was neglected. That's a true, that's true. And it was strange. You could sort of see the dawning realization of like, I'd never thought about it like that I'd never put those dots together and I'd never sort of seen that this is why I kept picking partners where I felt like I was giving and giving and giving and I was never really getting anything back from her because there was an empty pit of just. It doesn't seem to matter how much I give, how much I extend myself, how much I provide, it's never enough. And I always feel empty. And that, I think, can Be a confusing experience because it can feel again like, well, it must be me, it must be that I'm not enough, otherwise I would be able to provide it rather than, oh, I was patterned this way. And I have picked partners that have mimicked this pattern. And when I start to loosen it and unwind it, I can actually have a lot of self compassion and see where that came from.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Like, I'm doing it. I'm doing my thing. I'm doing the best I can do right now. And that's what self acceptance is. And it's a strong antidote to this pattern. And it does create fundamental shifts. And it's fun, I would say, much like the analogy of planting seeds and then watching them grow. There are clients we've worked with. I'm thinking of one in particular where I am. I just know it is just a matter of time before he meets a great partner. I just. He's doing the work. He's. He's done the work. He continues to. He came to our live event over the summer. He did deep work there. He continues to do it. I'm like this guy, like, I can see it. It's. It's happened, it's happening like within the next year. I'm positive, like, he's going to have a great partner and it's going to be so different than it has been for him. It makes me laugh.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's such a great trajectory to get to experience with men and see as these seeds come to fruition and how things really can change. And, you know, it just strikes me we were talking earlier about, like, what is it about working with men? And like, why is that so important here? And, you know, it just hits me that so much of what we're talking about, the shame, the intense feelings we carry about ourselves, the self loathing, it's like, it's like a lens we hold on ourselves. And the interesting thing is when we hold that lens on ourselves, that's often the lens other people will hold on us. And they basically see us as we're seeing ourselves. There's something really special about men's work that helps get around that because like you said, sometimes, and I do work with guys around this, but sometimes it's a little hard to go to that. Well, like, I love myself and I totally accept myself right away. Like, the circuitry just isn't quite there yet, but it's like we get to kind of diffuse that whole system when other men come in sideways and something about the way they're able to share that, share their experience of us, because it's not oftentimes connected to romance or sexuality or these places where these things really come up from us. It's like it starts to warm up the nervous system. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, some of that's true. Yeah, I can start to feel that. And then as other men keep kind of pouring that sunshine in us, eventually we can start to connect to it. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's right. I'm working really hard. I'm proud of who I am, proud of what I'm becoming. It's not all where I want it to be, but I'm on the right path. And then when we're walking through the world like that, that's where so much can shift in terms of attraction and patterns and our willingness to like, whatever I got today is my best. So all I have to do is, you know, literally step up to the plate. And then sometimes it'll be home run, sometimes it won't. But I'll feel good because I know I'm, I know I'm doing it. I know I'm trying it. And just. And then there's something about when another man does that, it makes it easier for us to do it. And then it's just like, it just keeps swirling through the group. It's so much fun. So inspiring to see.
Jason Lange: Unwinding this stuff is one of the, I would say, most important investments you can make in yourself. Because it also doesn't just show up in dating talk to any man. This shows up in so many parts of our life. Our work, our ability to ask for raises or time off or difficult conversations with family. Um, it really does often comes down to. Really does often come down to, like how we're experiencing ourself and our beliefs about ourselves. Right. If. If we're not connected to compassion for ourselves, we often won't stand up for ourselves. Right. And ask for what we need out in the world. So getting in there and doing this hard work, which it's it's not always fun. It's not always pretty. But like so many other things we talk about, it's way easier to do in community, and it accelerates it a lot faster and actually can kind of make it a little bit more fun because there is something about the. Like, I just shared this weird thing about myself or belief I have, and then everyone on the call raises their hand, which is often the case of, like, anyone else ever. And just like, boom, all the hands go up, and there's almost always a smile on the person who was like, oh, I thought I was the only one. Oh, my God. And that itself is the healing action. That is the healing movement starting of, like, okay, there's nothing. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with me. I've maybe made some mistakes or didn't have certain training in the past, but there's nothing about me that's rotten to the core.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: All the things I want can happen. They can happen. They can happen.
Melanie Curtin: Well, that seems like a good place to wrap. I would also say that one of the things I really love about this work is there's a quote that says, we overestimate what we can accomplish in a year and underestimate what we can accomplish in a decade. And I think that that's why I'm so passionate about personal growth work, is that it is compounding interest. It does grow over time. It sets you up for a better life. Right. Because the growth work that we see and what I see in our men is that they keep doing it, right? So they do. They do keep improving. And when I say the word improving, I don't mean in sort of capitalist sense. What I mean is more self acceptance, more self love, more. More of that sense of wholeness and wellness that goes beyond, you know, just chasing the next thing or, like, improvement in, you know, outside circumstances. So I find that deeply inspiring. Because what I have found is that, you know, a lot of the men that work with us, they're ready, right? They're ready. They're like, I need something to change. I need something to shift. And I've obviously been working on it for a while, and it's not happening. So I need to bring in some something else. And that something else ends up being just so much more than what was expected.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: Like, to your point, it's like, wow, this actually transformed my whole life, not just this one area. And. And that said, this one area is vital, right? Connection, love, sex, belonging, you know, just relationship is one of the most important parts of life, really, is it's one of the deepest spiritual learning grounds that we have, so it is worth working on this part. And it also expands a lot of other things in. In. In your life. So if you are interested in working with us, you can take our free [email protected]/training. And then you can book a call. We can explore.
Jason Lange: Yeah, we'd love to dive in.
