232: Love languages, conflict, connection, and repair | Dear Men

Jason Lange: These are all ways to do that. All the love languages are ways where you can kind of create some tension in that circuit, which just means, like, energies flowing. So these are ways you can kind of keep the tank full with your partner so that they don't have to revert to the poking to try to, like, find, like, what's still going on here. So these are very proactive, healthy things to. To do for your relationship.

Melanie Curtin: Hello, all. Welcome back to another episode. I am thrilled to have Jason with me. Hello again. And today we're talking about conflict, connection, love languages, and repair. And this is a topic, I think, that's a long time coming. And one of the reasons I wanted to touch on it is because it feels like this is one of those things I wish was taught in school, really. I really wish this was taught in school, and it's not. So we're making an effort to do that now. But one thing that we've talked about before when we've talked about things like conflict, is how a lot of conflict isn't really about the thing that it's about. So, you know, you forgot to do the dishes again, it's not really about the dishes. It's about, do you care about me? Do you see me? Do you notice my contributions or whatever it is. And I was thinking that before we go into the five love languages, maybe we could just touch on that dynamic a little bit of, you know, what has your experience been in terms of that dynamic in relationship where it's like, we're fighting about this thing, but then actually it's about this other thing?

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, it's something, obviously, I've become far more aware of the longer my relationship is gone, as there's just more time for things to accumulate and for patterns to emerge. And, I mean, on my end, and, you know, if my wife f was here, she would probably agree. 99% of the time, our conflicts boil down to, like, I've been pretty checked out and not present, and it starts to kind of, like, accumulate in the relationship, and then it comes out through these little kind of nitpicky things until that, like, gets big enough that I'm like, no, I'm here, I'm here, and then I show back up kind of thing. Just. That's our dance.

Melanie Curtin: That's great. I love how succinct that is too, because it feels like. Yeah. Again, something I've also noticed in relationship is being on the other side of that. Not exactly in the same way, but similar. Yeah. I get kind of pokey I get kind of pokey. I get. I don't know if I would say critical, but maybe we can throw critical in, but more like a little bit sharp.

Jason Lange: Little.

Melanie Curtin: Little annoyed. Like small things bother me and just kind of like pokey and it's uncomfortable. Right. I can feel it in my body that it doesn't feel good. And it's almost like I can't help it. It feels a little bit like, of course I'm an adult, I can help it. But a part of me is just like. Like I feel tense and I feel annoyed with you, and I just. These little things are bugging me. And then when we kind of come together and repair, a lot of it has to do with, do I feel cherished? Do I feel cherished by you? Do I feel loved by you? When I feel loved by you, those little things matter a lot less. It's not that I don't want you to do the dishes or whatever. Of course, yes, this is a thing. But it's so much less charged when I feel filled up, when I feel loved, when I feel held. So that's kind of. Our intention of this episode is different people feel loved and held in different ways. And we're going to talk about that. And it sounds like, you know, one of the love languages has to do with quality time, deep presence. And it seems like that's probably one of Violet's love languages. You being really being there with her, fully present, engaged, you know, with her not necessarily doing something for her. We'll get to all of that, but just. That's a deep love language for her. And so then when that's missing and she's not feeling cherished or held or met, then it's like. Like I'm upset about all these things. Upset about all these things when really it's like, I miss you, I want you here with me. And. And so that's the. That's sort of point of the. Of the whole episode. So we're going to go through the love languages. There are five of them, and there are sort of the sub dialects in each one. But I'm just curious, you know, if you have a sense of yours. I'm curious if this has ever come up kind of in an explicit way in your relationship and what, you know, what yours were.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is stuff definitely Violet and I have talked about in our relationship out of necessity and just understanding, you know, what fuels each other. So, you know, I actually tend to think of these and kind of love languages, you know, in two ways. For Me personally, because there's. There's like, what do I default to giving and what do I prefer to receive? And there can be a mismatch on either one, depending on where things are at with a partner. So what I prefer to receive physical touch, and I think it would be under acts of service, but specifically nourishment via food. Like, that's just when I feel very, very loved. Time is not super important to me. Gifts, not important me, words of affection almost do nothing for me. Like, it's not that I don't want them, but it just, like, doesn't. I. I just don't need it. Like, in the same way, touch, nourishment, acts of service really are what do it for me. What I tend to give is gifts and acts of service. Acts of service often being, like, doing stuff around the house, maintenance Y things, little things, taking out the trash, those kinds of things. And. Or just getting little, you know, treats or things from my partner where that has caused conflict. Right. Was something I've had to learn over time is for Violet, for my partner, her number one to receive is words of affection. Like, that's the thing that really jazzes her up. And then physical touch and then quality time kind of via presence. Like, she. She doesn't demand, like, a ton of my time. It's just there has to be a certain threshold of connected presence within each, you know, couple days or week or so. But, like, my default to give is never words of affection, and it's almost actually never even physical touch, like another one for her. So I have to. Like, it's. It's. It's a deep practice to literally remember. Just like any kind of contemplative or meditative practice. Like, okay, like, say this thing, you know, track this thing. And we've had some real pain, you know, learning about how these things work, and then even more pain having learned about how they work, yet I still don't do them.

Melanie Curtin: No doubt. I feel loved by that. And I'm not even your partner.

Jason Lange: Yeah, there you go.

Melanie Curtin: That's. That's a great one. I love that. Just reminding someone, like, you're great at this. Even just you're great at this. I think that's the thing, is the simplicity of this one is it doesn't need to be elaborate. Does it need to be big, flowery? It's not about flowery language. It's just about saying it.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I'm curious if you can speak at all to. Yeah. Learning to move in that direction. You know, just you. Because I think this is a pretty common archetype. Is there any advice that you would give men that are kind of in a similar position to you where this is not their default? They did not grow up in a house where this was present so much. This is sort of a new concept. And, you know, any advice about how you've moved towards that or. It sounds like you're definitely still in process of that, but any tips on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say. I mean, it's a practice like anything else. So there's the learning, the learning how to do it, and then remembering to do it in the moment, and that's definitely probably what's still most in process for me. I would say, you know, it's becoming more and more organic, and I do catch myself, and I do bring it in more and more and more when I'm not just stuck up in my own head. What helped me initially is structure. And so what I mean by that is Even before it's organic. So, I mean, this is the kind of thing what I love about this one and how powerful it is, is even if it's not organic in the sense of like, oh, it just flowed out of me in the moment. But it's like, you know, we offer our clients oftentimes a lot of games or structures or sentence stems that they can bring to their partner of like three things I appreciate about, you know?

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: And you can say, hey, do you want to play a game where we share three things we appreciate about each other? And they're like, yes. And like, so the game was just set up that you're going to be delivering this and yet still you deliver it and it lands. Right. So it's, it's not like it has to be this mystery, out of coming out of nowhere romantic thing. It's awesome when it is that way. But I guess what I'm saying is you can actually practice by explicitly setting an extra. A structure for, hey, I want to practice appreciating each other more. Where I just want to name, you know, three things I'm appreciating about you or three things I love about you right now. And maybe we end our day with that, or maybe we start our day with that or something like that. Where that itself made it easier for me. As, as we played different games and different structures like that started to bring things in to our lives like that. And then it's like, it's a. It's like the muscle gets built there and then it's become easier for me to do outside of that when it is just more in the moment, walking across the house or just noticing something special.

Melanie Curtin: That's a really great tip. I also, I think it's very masculine to bring structure. So one thing I was thinking about was leading date night or going on date night and saying I'm. I'm adding something to date night. At the. While we're having dinner, we're going to do three things I admire about you. That's going to be part of our date night. Like if, if my man said that to me, I'd be like, oh, wow, like you're, you're leading. Like, it's so masculine. I think there's something polarizing about the masculine person or the one holding that pole saying, we're bringing in some structure. We're going to do this thing. There's something. Yeah. Really, really great about that.

Jason Lange: And just before I forget, another one came up for me. We were working through. I don't remember the source material, honestly, some, some couples conflict thing or something like that. But they had an example of like a list of phrases. And then each, each of us sat down with a printout and circled the ones that felt like they would do something for us. And now we have those on the refrigerator. So even if I don't remember, I can like walk over once a day, see, oh, hey, these are the things she likes. And again, even though she explicitly circled them, told me there's like, you know, it's not like this spontaneous thing. If I take the time to do it, it still goes right to her heart.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, we've talked about it. And, you know, I've honestly, sometimes from a defensive place, like, hey, I'm doing all these things.

Melanie Curtin: And.

Jason Lange: And so she's much better at noticing it now and attuning to it and, you know, and it still doesn't quite give the golden light to her heart in the same way. So it's like she can acknowledge it and it's still. It's not quite the nutrients she needs. So that's part of the. The back and forth in the play of things that. But. But there are times, you know, she notices things and I, you know, I think one way this is showed up for us that, like, you know, another way you can think. I think of acts of service for whatever reason is coming for me. Because sometimes, you know, this. This does happen in our relationship where it's like something comes up and it's just like, oh, it's handled right. It's like, I've just already handled it. I figured it out. I did all the Front and she's like, oh great, right. Like that's one place. It's kind of like a weird energy, but it's just like, nope, that's already handled. Like it's just, it's already done. The paperwork's filed or the thing's done, that kind of stuff. In some sense, the bigger acts of service I think do land with her a little bit more of like, oh yeah, no, I already did our taxes or I did like this thing or I sorted that out. That's like, ah, that kind of relaxes her and, and that's been. It's sometimes easier for me to tackle the small things than the big things. So as I've taken on more of the big things, I, I think actually now that I think about it, it is landing in her more interesting.

Melanie Curtin: That's, that's, that's a good example of. This is an ongoing conversation, I think. And you know, I've been working with, with couples more. I've been, I've doing a course for couples and I have, you know, more of those experiences now. And one thing that we talk about is having regular check ins on like how is our relationship going? Not in a scary way, but just regular check ins. And I think this is something that's worth adding to that around love languages because just it's not a one and done conversation. It's an ongoing. How is this going? How's this going for you? How's this going for me? When was a time that you felt loved? You know, anything you're needing more of around this, you know, because I think that it's easy for us to assume that we have a conversation once and then oh, we did that, like we checked that off. But really it's like this is one of the deepest and most important parts of a relationship is how do we love each other well? How do we love each other well? And it does take time to figure that out and to learn how to do it well. And I think it's, I think it's also true for parents and children. You know, how to love our children. Well, that's, I think more getting older. But just who is this person? Not assuming that you know or that you know how love gets in with them. You know, it might be unexpected and paying attention to what actually works and what actually feels loving and nourishing is a huge, it's an act of maturity to grasp that not everyone is like me. Other people, things are important to different people in different ways. And that's one of the most important Lessons of this whole thing is how someone else feels loved, not the same as how I feel loved. And that's. That feels very mature. Okay. Active service. Is there anything else? Don't think so. On that one, I don't think there were dialects. The next one is gifts. I think this is one that is a little bit misunderstood. So gifts is not just physical. Physical items. And we'll start with that. But gifts is also the gift of my attention. The gift of my attention. So there was a story in the book about a woman who.

Jason Lange: Had.

Melanie Curtin: She had either. Oh, I think she just gotten. Had a baby. She and her husband had just had a baby. And she was talking to the counselor who wrote the book, and she was like, he loves softball more than he loves me. And he was asking her a little bit about what she meant. And she said, you know, the day that I had our son, he was there in the hospital until my son was born. And then he left to play softball. And same on the day of my mother's funeral, he left to play softball. And so the guy was asking, like, was he there for the actual birth? And she said yes. And was he there for the actual funeral? And she said yes. But then he left. And there was this bereft feeling of like, kind of feeling dropped, basically. And the counselor was pointing out that the gift of presence, the gift of just. And when I say presence, I mean just physically being there with someone, not necessarily interacting or doing a bunch of stuff, but just being with that person. And there was another example he gave of also a funeral, I think of a woman was. Her husband's parent had died and she was gonna. She had to travel for the funeral. And so she told her boss she was taking the whole day off, and the boss pushed back and was like, well, can't you come in in the afternoon? I really need you. And she said, no, this is important to my husband. I need to be there for him. And he felt deeply loved by that choice and the happy ending to that. She ended up replacing that boss because who the fuck would say that that's totally fucked up. But. But that's an example of a gift is of your attention. It's not just physical gifts. It's also a gift of your attention. But gifts. I have found a couple of my friends have this love language. And what I've noticed is it's not about the physical item. It's how well do I know them? They love receiving gifts that show that I know them. So a book about something that we talked about or an item of clothing from a place that we went together or. Or, you know, they talk about a certain animal a lot, like a jaguar. And I got. I got one of my friends a jaguar shirt, and she felt really seen. So gifts is not just about random gifts like flowers or chocolate, like our culture says, but, you know, really thinking about that person and what they love and getting a gift that reflects that. And I feel like you're quite strong at this category. You know, since I'm friends with Violet, can you say a little about. I. I just. I feel like you're pretty good at this, and not everyone is.

Melanie Curtin: That's really sweet. I really. I remember someone I was dating. I really like boba. I like bubble tea. And I remember at one point, he showed up at my place, and he had two. He had one for me and one for him. And I'll never forget it. And was probably $3.50. Like, this is a great example of gifts do not have to be expensive. We are not talking about expensive physical items. It's just like, oh, my God, you thought of me, and you have seen me order enough that you knew which flavor to get. And so I feel the love language of gifts. It's not really about gifts. It's about feeling seen. It's about feeling seen and feeling noticed.

Jason Lange: And.

Melanie Curtin: And really, that's what most of these are about at the end of the day. But that really struck me. And, yeah, my current partner, I lost my water bottle that I drink out of every day. And of course, you know, this is, like, pretty distressing because it's a really important thing. And when I don't have it, I get headaches because I get dehydrated. And he did a bunch of research, and he bought me, like, a really good water bottle. Like, one I probably wouldn't get myself. You know, that's like. It seals in a certain way so that it can be upside down and it won't spill. It's easy to drink out of. You don't have to unscrew the top. Like, it's. It's practically a very good water bottle. I thought that was super romantic. And he knows that I like pink, and so he got me a pink one, and I was like, oh, my God. You know, I am, and you care about me. And. And he did it without asking. He didn't, you know, hey, do you think I should? Or it was just sort of like, hey, I got you this. And there's something, I think, deeply nourishing about that of like, oh, you actually do know who I am. And you. And you care about me. And so that. That really landed as, like, love. And that's a good example of. The gifts that we're talking about are not elaborate. They're not huge, but they're meaningful.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think one way I'm realizing you might be able to talk about this in, particularly in terms of the giving thing is it's like, it's a manifestation of attunement. So it's like, I'm attuned to my partner, and I know their inner world, so I know what to bring to it. Like, that. That's it. And so I don't have to, like, necessarily ask for permission or just like, oh, yeah, no, I know this is going to work, like, because I know my partner. And so it's like, it's a. It's a manifestation of that, like a type of intimacy in that. Particularly in the. In the, you know, the giving. It's the expression of that attunement, which is what makes it meaningful. Even if it's right. Like you said, it could be a. It could be. It could be one of those, like, little travel pins or something. You. But, you know, your friend collects it or your partner collects it, so you got it, and it was, you know, it was 25 cents or something, but they're like, oh, you remembered me on that thing, and thank you. That's what makes it meaningful, is that it's like that. Yeah. It's just that. Remembering that, noticing.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And I think that I. Because words of affirmation are one of my primaries, I actually treasure the words that I receive from my partner or my friends. Like, I go back, I remember them like, I hold them close to my heart. So there's. There is something really satisfying about a physical item. And for me, words are so important to me. Words of affirmation are so important to me that I sort of treasure them in the same way. It's not a physical thing, but it's. It's so important to me. It's. I value it. I. It's deeply meaningful. It's. It's like something I hold close to my heart. So, yeah, I think I just wanted to name that because I do think that it can feel like oh, I'm not really doing anything if I'm just giving her praise or if I'm just, you know, naming things. But it's like, no, actually, like, I. I think about that later. Like, I keep thinking about that. Like, it really, really makes a difference. It really lands. I feel. I feel it in my heart.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And, you know, last thing it just hit me of, because as you can see as you listen to these, there's some overlap sometimes, right, between, like, what's a gift and what's an act of service? Like, it's not that these are like totally discrete categories, but even, you know, the. The gift of presence piece, right. Can be different from quality time. Like, you know, one thing I've heard, you know, from the hundreds of calls I've done with guys and, you know, we talk about family and lineage and stuff is one thing I think, particularly for boys, but I imagine for a lot of women too, that I, that I've heard from guys is things they remember of like, oh, yeah, mom or dad or they both. They came to every game, right? And so they weren't interacting. It wasn't quality time in the sense of, like, we were like, relating with each other or something. It was just like, literally I looked over and my parent was there at this thing, and then maybe I had to go back to school afterwards. So, like. But they took the time to be present for me in that way. That's. That's one of the. The forms, I think, of this kind of. It's like the gift of your presence. Like, you don't actually need me here, but I'm here because I care about you and I love you.

Jason Lange: Yeah. There was just a piece of research that I saw online last week about this. Specifically. It's called aloe grooming. So when you, like, groom each other is a specific term. So it's Non sexual physical touch that's around grooming. And out of the different types of touch, it's actually the, the one that ranked the highest for oxytocin. So like getting your hair brushed, beard done. I remember, you know, as a teenager and a touch absent household, I, I can still viscerally remember when you go get a haircut and they'd wash your hair and just the hands on the scalp of like, whoa. Like, you know, when you haven't had any touch, that's like a drug of like holy, holy cow. That was powerful. That was one of the only places I was getting it. But all those small types of grooming things really like can have a massive impact. Like massive, massive impact of which I, you know, I'd consider like massage and stuff like that kind of a subset of that as well of just, you know, rubbing. I know a lot of, a lot of women, my partner included, like love it if I just rub her feet. Just like a quick, you know, just. Yeah, you had a hard day. Rub doesn't take much and just observe.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. So yeah, as we start to wrap up, I'm going to drop a few things in the show notes if you're interested in some of the things that we talked about. I think that that touch. Let's coordinate on that after because I'd like to drop that in. And then I do think it's worth reading the book the Five Love Languages. It's not very long if you found this compelling. I think there are some other examples in there that are powerful. So I do recommend that I'd say you can kind of skip the intro chapter and just go straight to the Five Love Languages and the conclusion. And then if you are interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men training and take our free training. It's a good way of going a little bit deeper than the podcast. I would say that this whole discussion and love Languages, it's not just about love between a couple, it's also about friends, family members, all of that. And one thing that I've been really inspired by is the number of our clients that have grown tremendously in our work together and have carried that growth forward in their family system. So they have led discussions that have never been led or they've leaned in in a different way or set healthy boundaries. Just I've been really inspired by how growth work impacts everyone around the person that's doing it. So to me it feels like a deep act of service. To grow yourself as an individual and to get help doing that is a wise thing to do, in my opinion, because we can't do everything ourselves. We weren't meant to. It's not supposed to be like that. And having a community, having other people that are also growing, does something to our system. It just inspires us. We see other people. There's a reason that masterminds and sort of small groups of people have been around forever. And there's, there's that quote about, you know, never doubt what a small, committed group of citizens can, can accomplish. It's the only thing that has ever changed the world. That's. There's something about that. So if you're interested, you go to Evolutionary Men Slash training, and you can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com.