Here's the counterintuitive truth that marriage counselors won't tell you: your instinct to love your partner the way you want to be loved is actually sabotaging your relationship. I discovered this firsthand in my conversation with Melanie Curtin on Dear Men about love languages, where we unpacked how our default ways of giving love often create disconnection rather than the intimacy we're desperately trying to build.
For me, words of affection and quality time just don't land the same way physical touch and acts of service do. But my wife Violet? Words of affection are everything for her. That's been one of our biggest learning edges. I can reorganize the entire pantry, handle all the tech stuff, clean up bags of dog poop before she has to deal with it, and while she notices and appreciates it, it doesn't quite fill her tank the way a genuine compliment does. Meanwhile, I have to actively practice remembering to share those words with her, even when I'm thinking them. It's like the thought goes through my head and I forget to actually say it out loud.
We also talked about the deeper work underneath all this, the attunement piece. The most meaningful expressions of love, whether it's gifts, touch, or time, come from actually tracking your partner. Remembering that one thing they mentioned months ago. Noticing what lights them up. That's what makes a $5 bar of chocolate more powerful than some generic romantic gesture.
The real pattern I've noticed in our relationship is that most of our conflicts trace back to me being checked out and not present. That accumulated disconnect starts showing up as nitpicky stuff until it gets big enough that I wake up and show back up. That's our dance.
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Jason Lange: These are all ways to do that. All the love languages are ways where you can kind of create some tension in that circuit, which just means, like, energies flowing. So these are ways you can kind of keep the tank full with your partner so that they don't have to revert to the poking to try to, like, find, like, what's still going on here. So these are very proactive, healthy things to. To do for your relationship.
Melanie Curtin: Hello, all. Welcome back to another episode. I am thrilled to have Jason with me. Hello again. And today we're talking about conflict, connection, love languages, and repair. And this is a topic, I think, that's a long time coming. And one of the reasons I wanted to touch on it is because it feels like this is one of those things I wish was taught in school, really. I really wish this was taught in school, and it's not. So we're making an effort to do that now. But one thing that we've talked about before when we've talked about things like conflict, is how a lot of conflict isn't really about the thing that it's about. So, you know, you forgot to do the dishes again, it's not really about the dishes. It's about, do you care about me? Do you see me? Do you notice my contributions or whatever it is. And I was thinking that before we go into the five love languages, maybe we could just touch on that dynamic a little bit of, you know, what has your experience been in terms of that dynamic in relationship where it's like, we're fighting about this thing, but then actually it's about this other thing?
Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, it's something, obviously, I've become far more aware of the longer my relationship is gone, as there's just more time for things to accumulate and for patterns to emerge. And, I mean, on my end, and, you know, if my wife f was here, she would probably agree. 99% of the time, our conflicts boil down to, like, I've been pretty checked out and not present, and it starts to kind of, like, accumulate in the relationship, and then it comes out through these little kind of nitpicky things until that, like, gets big enough that I'm like, no, I'm here, I'm here, and then I show back up kind of thing. Just. That's our dance.
Melanie Curtin: That's great. I love how succinct that is too, because it feels like. Yeah. Again, something I've also noticed in relationship is being on the other side of that. Not exactly in the same way, but similar. Yeah. I get kind of pokey I get kind of pokey. I get. I don't know if I would say critical, but maybe we can throw critical in, but more like a little bit sharp.
Jason Lange: Little.
Melanie Curtin: Little annoyed. Like small things bother me and just kind of like pokey and it's uncomfortable. Right. I can feel it in my body that it doesn't feel good. And it's almost like I can't help it. It feels a little bit like, of course I'm an adult, I can help it. But a part of me is just like. Like I feel tense and I feel annoyed with you, and I just. These little things are bugging me. And then when we kind of come together and repair, a lot of it has to do with, do I feel cherished? Do I feel cherished by you? Do I feel loved by you? When I feel loved by you, those little things matter a lot less. It's not that I don't want you to do the dishes or whatever. Of course, yes, this is a thing. But it's so much less charged when I feel filled up, when I feel loved, when I feel held. So that's kind of. Our intention of this episode is different people feel loved and held in different ways. And we're going to talk about that. And it sounds like, you know, one of the love languages has to do with quality time, deep presence. And it seems like that's probably one of Violet's love languages. You being really being there with her, fully present, engaged, you know, with her not necessarily doing something for her. We'll get to all of that, but just. That's a deep love language for her. And so then when that's missing and she's not feeling cherished or held or met, then it's like. Like I'm upset about all these things. Upset about all these things when really it's like, I miss you, I want you here with me. And. And so that's the. That's sort of point of the. Of the whole episode. So we're going to go through the love languages. There are five of them, and there are sort of the sub dialects in each one. But I'm just curious, you know, if you have a sense of yours. I'm curious if this has ever come up kind of in an explicit way in your relationship and what, you know, what yours were.
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is stuff definitely Violet and I have talked about in our relationship out of necessity and just understanding, you know, what fuels each other. So, you know, I actually tend to think of these and kind of love languages, you know, in two ways. For Me personally, because there's. There's like, what do I default to giving and what do I prefer to receive? And there can be a mismatch on either one, depending on where things are at with a partner. So what I prefer to receive physical touch, and I think it would be under acts of service, but specifically nourishment via food. Like, that's just when I feel very, very loved. Time is not super important to me. Gifts, not important me, words of affection almost do nothing for me. Like, it's not that I don't want them, but it just, like, doesn't. I. I just don't need it. Like, in the same way, touch, nourishment, acts of service really are what do it for me. What I tend to give is gifts and acts of service. Acts of service often being, like, doing stuff around the house, maintenance Y things, little things, taking out the trash, those kinds of things. And. Or just getting little, you know, treats or things from my partner where that has caused conflict. Right. Was something I've had to learn over time is for Violet, for my partner, her number one to receive is words of affection. Like, that's the thing that really jazzes her up. And then physical touch and then quality time kind of via presence. Like, she. She doesn't demand, like, a ton of my time. It's just there has to be a certain threshold of connected presence within each, you know, couple days or week or so. But, like, my default to give is never words of affection, and it's almost actually never even physical touch, like another one for her. So I have to. Like, it's. It's. It's a deep practice to literally remember. Just like any kind of contemplative or meditative practice. Like, okay, like, say this thing, you know, track this thing. And we've had some real pain, you know, learning about how these things work, and then even more pain having learned about how they work, yet I still don't do them.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. I appreciate you sharing that because it feels very much like. So this is a. The Five Love Languages is a book by Gary Chapman, which I've read for this episode, and we'll reread. And one of the things that he talks about is many couples will not overlap on one or both. So most people have a primary and a secondary love language. And then everyone likes everything. Mostly, you know, we like, everyone likes these things. But there are certain channels that are more vivid for people. And again, the point is deeply feeling loved. So you might intellectually know that your partner loves you, but feeling it Feeling held, feeling loved is a different thing. And that's what we're talking about. And I appreciate you saying that because what happens is that a lot of people get together and there's tons of dopamine happening. So in the honeymoon phase, when two people get together, there's usually a lot of, of all five love languages. There's a lot of quality time. You know, you're going on dates, you're sitting across from each other, you're looking into each other's eyes. Often you're feeling really generous and uplifted. So you do give each other gifts. There's a lot of physical touch, right? You're, you know, discovering each other's bodies for the first time. There's just a lot of, tends to be a lot more physical touch and words of affirmation, you know, there's. It tends to be that all five are flowing at the beginning and then what we tend to see over time is that we stop being high because the limerence phase of all of the dopamine and serotonin and everything that's happening is likened to cocaine. Being on cocaine. Researchers have studied this. It's actually pretty close to being on cocaine, which is pretty hard drug. Once you're off of that high, you sort of default to who you were before and how you love and how you love and how you receive love. And so many couples right around the two year dopamine cliff, which is when, you know, a lot of dopamine goes down, that's when they start to have deeper conflicts because at that point their, their partner isn't doing all the same things that they were doing at the beginning. And so it can be very confusing, like, I don't understand how we got together or why this worked before. You know, it can be really challenging. And so I think it's important to have explicit conversations about love languages and be mindful, like you said, so that you can, you know, actually love someone. And when I'm using the word love there, I'm kind of using it in the definition of Scott Peck, who wrote the Road Less Traveled, which he defined love as the willingness to extend yourself for another, the willingness to extend yourself, spiritually or otherwise, for another meaning. Words of affirmation are not, they don't come easily to you. I've also been in that position with partners where that's not their primary way of expressing love. But because they know it's important to me, they make an effort. And so that effort, I love receiving words of affirmation and I feel Extra loved when he does it because I know that he's doing it because he loves me. He's not doing it because it's like, oh, this is free and easy for me. And I'm just doing this thing that I do. It's like, oh, he said that because he loves me. He said that because he knows this is important to me. I think there's a lot of value around these conversations and actually learning how to love each other well, because I think that's something that our culture is quite poor at. We sort of watch these rom coms where it makes it seem like we just all know how to do this. And it's like, no, actually you're getting to know someone over time. It takes a long time to get to know someone deeply and it takes a long time to figure out how to love them well. So, yeah. Any comments on that before we get into the love languages?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think the, that process all couples have to go through of actually teaching each other how to love each other, like that's a, that's a thing. And it can be even more challenging if you haven't done a lot of work. And you know, we're probably mostly talking about from a frame here at least of you kind of know what works for you, but I think there's a lot of people that don't even know what works for them. So it can be hard to teach your partner to give you what you need when you don't necessarily consciously know what you need. So, you know, going through material like this can, can really support you and even self identifying then kind of bringing that into partnership. And I think it's just a crucial step that every couple really needs to do because, you know, I certainly have no research for this and maybe they talk about it in the book, but I think that like revert to the mean thing after the, you know, all those shifts that happen between that one and two year mark. You know, my sense is that's where we kind of go back to family of origin of like, well, how was it expressed in my house? And that's just kind of what my default is after all the hormones go through. Because I know certainly, you know, gifts in kind of acts of service. That's what was done in my house. So that's kind of what my body is used to, had modeled for me. So that's the one I default to.
Melanie Curtin: That's such a good point. I think I want to just highlight that briefly. I really, I do think that we are taught how love works in our family of origin, we are taught what love is in our family of origin. And I do also think that for some people, the way that they were loved by their parents or caregivers or whoever actually doesn't match up with their love languages. So I know we're going to talk about this, but I know multiple people who've had huge realizations and aha. Moments reading this book and delving into it and understanding that, for example, their father was doing his very best to love them, right with act of service and, you know, providing and really doing what he was doing. And they really needed words they needed to hear words they needed to hear. I'm proud of you. I love you. You did a great job, nice work. And they never got that from him. And so they felt deeply unloved. But they later, reflecting back, they kind of saw, oh, there were so many things that he was doing to love me. And I think that's a pretty deep realization. So I think as we're going through these, you can think of not just your romantic partners, but also just people in your lives that you are noticing or extending themselves in some way that maybe you've missed. And I would guess that for a lot of folks out there, they have also felt missed in the way that they have attempted to love others. But I think that's such a good point about. Yeah, the template for how love works. What love is is installed pretty early on. And this is. I think it's quite a mature practice to update how we love each other and what. What we do in. In that way. So, yeah, we're going to go over the five love languages. You may have heard of some of these, I think. Let's start with words of affirmation. So words of affirmation are. There's basically sort of two different dialects in terms of this. One of them is kind of what I think what you would sort of expect around, you know, affection. I love you. You're important to me. You matter to me. You know, you're one of the most important people in my life. I trust you. I'm trying to think of other phrases, but it's personal words about that person and their impact or their meaning to you. There's a lot of people who've never heard a parent say, you're important to me. I love you. I'm proud of you. Those are simple phrases that some people have never heard from people in their lives because a. I think it's quite vulnerable to share that, especially if you didn't have it modeled so now if we're talking about, say, our parents generation, if their parents never modeled that. Right. They might not ever have. They're like, oh. Is the thing I should say, like, I don't. Of course I'm proud of you. When it's sort of pointed out, they're like, well, of course I'm proud of you. It's like, well, you've never said that in 35 years.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.
Melanie Curtin: It's really hard for me to figure that out on my own. But is there any others that you can think of? I have some more ideas in this, but that you, for example, that you figured out are like hot button phrases that help your partner feel loved or a partner in the past.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, with my current partner, I would say just praise in general falls under this. So the noticing when she's dressed up or done her hair or you look good in that dress, or, wow, like, those shoes look awesome on you, like praising. So these are. These are often things I notice. But again, my habit as a man is not to actually take them out of my mind and share them with her. So it's like, oh, yeah, I think that I'm like, oh, you look really good in that. And then it's. Sometimes I don't even realize, like. And those words didn't come out of your mouth. They just went through your head. So for me, it's having to. To really learn to practice, like, the. Oh, okay, I was impacted by that. Or I've noticed that and. And share that. So anytime, you know, I'm. I'm praising her in that sense. You know, for us right now and where we're at, that praise also includes, like, the enormous amount of time and energy and love Violet puts into taking care of our daughter. Rudy Ruby. Just that, like, you know, simple things, like, you're doing such a great job. You're an awesome mom. Like, you know, when I. When I deliver that and remember to deliver that, and she is. It's like, you know, just mana to her heart.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, exactly. It's. It's like water on a plant, you know, it's like, oh, that feels so good. It feels so good. I feel noticed. I feel seen. This is one of mine. Words of affirmation is one of my primary ones. I'm not sure if it's my primary. It might be my primary. But the other thing is that words of affirmation, like you said, I think that's a very common pattern that you just said where I think a lot of men do notice things about Their woman, they just don't say them. So exactly what you said of like, wow, she looks really good today, but it doesn't come out of their mouth. And so I do think there's a spiritual practice around training oneself to actually bring it out of your mouth. It doesn't need to be. I guess what I'm trying to say is this doesn't need to be something you're producing out of nowhere that you're trying to manufacture. It's just allowing what's already present to be spoken into the space. Like, wow, you did a great job putting her down tonight. She was really fussy. And that was. You did. You were. That was beautiful. It doesn't need to be complex. It's not something intricate. It's just noticing what is so. And then speaking to it. There they. In the book, they talk about sort of two different dialects of words of affirmation, one being kind of what we're discussing now, and another being noticing your partner's art. Or maybe art isn't the right word, but, for example, I run a podcast, right? If my partner listens to an episode and says, I really liked this part of the episode or this, you know, made a lot of sense to me, that is also words of affirmation, because it's affirming what I'm up to in the world. So anytime we're supporting our partners in that way, meaning, yeah, noticing what they're. What they're doing and praising them, like you said, or supporting them somehow, like, you're a great writer. You're just a fantastic writer. Every time I get one of your emails to our group, I'm impressed by the quality of your writing. That is also words of affirmation. So it's not necessarily about, you look, you look really great in those jeans. But it's, you know, what you're about, what you contribute to the world is valuable, and that can include encouraging. Right. I know you've wanted to maybe do some more writing, and I just really want to encourage you. I think you're excellent, and I think that your clarity of thought is powerful, and I always look forward to reading your notes. That is also words of affirmation. So anytime. And part of what I hear in that, too, is really noticing the person. Like, when I feel like someone took the time to listen to my podcast or read my writing and bother to tell me what they liked about it, I feel loved, I feel seen, I feel noticed. I feel all of those kind of warm things. So I think that sometimes it can be Easy in the day. To day to forget to. Yeah. Just kind of remember what our partner is up to in their lives, in their. In their work and, you know, just in their. In their lives and speak to that. Because we have a personal relationship with them, we frequently kind of miss the other parts of what they're up to. And that can feel really, really good to feel seen in.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think I've categorized this in my mind as reminders. Like, there's definitely times I'm just, like, reminding my partner and Violet, like, what she's great at. Like. Oh, yeah, no, like, you're. You're an amazing coach. Like, this is totally what you do. This is what you're born for. You're amazing at this because, you know, whatever might be going on, or she's stressed out and she can lose touch with that. So sometimes it's the reminder of, like, yeah, no, I know. You're born for this. Like, this is what you're supposed to do.
Melanie Curtin: No doubt. I feel loved by that. And I'm not even your partner.
Jason Lange: Yeah, there you go.
Melanie Curtin: That's. That's a great one. I love that. Just reminding someone, like, you're great at this. Even just you're great at this. I think that's the thing, is the simplicity of this one is it doesn't need to be elaborate. Does it need to be big, flowery? It's not about flowery language. It's just about saying it.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I'm curious if you can speak at all to. Yeah. Learning to move in that direction. You know, just you. Because I think this is a pretty common archetype. Is there any advice that you would give men that are kind of in a similar position to you where this is not their default? They did not grow up in a house where this was present so much. This is sort of a new concept. And, you know, any advice about how you've moved towards that or. It sounds like you're definitely still in process of that, but any tips on that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say. I mean, it's a practice like anything else. So there's the learning, the learning how to do it, and then remembering to do it in the moment, and that's definitely probably what's still most in process for me. I would say, you know, it's becoming more and more organic, and I do catch myself, and I do bring it in more and more and more when I'm not just stuck up in my own head. What helped me initially is structure. And so what I mean by that is Even before it's organic. So, I mean, this is the kind of thing what I love about this one and how powerful it is, is even if it's not organic in the sense of like, oh, it just flowed out of me in the moment. But it's like, you know, we offer our clients oftentimes a lot of games or structures or sentence stems that they can bring to their partner of like three things I appreciate about, you know?
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: And you can say, hey, do you want to play a game where we share three things we appreciate about each other? And they're like, yes. And like, so the game was just set up that you're going to be delivering this and yet still you deliver it and it lands. Right. So it's, it's not like it has to be this mystery, out of coming out of nowhere romantic thing. It's awesome when it is that way. But I guess what I'm saying is you can actually practice by explicitly setting an extra. A structure for, hey, I want to practice appreciating each other more. Where I just want to name, you know, three things I'm appreciating about you or three things I love about you right now. And maybe we end our day with that, or maybe we start our day with that or something like that. Where that itself made it easier for me. As, as we played different games and different structures like that started to bring things in to our lives like that. And then it's like, it's a. It's like the muscle gets built there and then it's become easier for me to do outside of that when it is just more in the moment, walking across the house or just noticing something special.
Melanie Curtin: That's a really great tip. I also, I think it's very masculine to bring structure. So one thing I was thinking about was leading date night or going on date night and saying I'm. I'm adding something to date night. At the. While we're having dinner, we're going to do three things I admire about you. That's going to be part of our date night. Like if, if my man said that to me, I'd be like, oh, wow, like you're, you're leading. Like, it's so masculine. I think there's something polarizing about the masculine person or the one holding that pole saying, we're bringing in some structure. We're going to do this thing. There's something. Yeah. Really, really great about that.
Jason Lange: And just before I forget, another one came up for me. We were working through. I don't remember the source material, honestly, some, some couples conflict thing or something like that. But they had an example of like a list of phrases. And then each, each of us sat down with a printout and circled the ones that felt like they would do something for us. And now we have those on the refrigerator. So even if I don't remember, I can like walk over once a day, see, oh, hey, these are the things she likes. And again, even though she explicitly circled them, told me there's like, you know, it's not like this spontaneous thing. If I take the time to do it, it still goes right to her heart.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, that's such a good. See, this is what I'm talking about is we need these hacks. They're not hokey. Because you do love her. That's the thing, is the love is there. It's how the love gets expressed and how it gets received. It's not whether the love is there, the love is there. It's how we, how we metabolize it, how it gets in. It's almost like vitamin C, right? Vitamin C or iron. Right. Iron is absorbed more when there's vitamin C present. So the iron might be there, but it's not getting into the body, it's going through the body. So I really like that. And I, if maybe after you can look that up and we can drop that into the show notes because I think that's pretty powerful. Again, people have been down this road before, so we don't want to reinvent the wheel. And I think those, those types of phrases are. Many people have, you know, come up with, this is part of how I feel. Deeply seen or deeply loved. This is a phrase that I need. You know, your well being is important to me. Might be one of them. Like, you know, I'm blanking on other ones. But just. It might not be what you think, but for some people, it's like that really matters to me. Like that's what I didn't get in my house that I always needed to get and that, that often tends to be something that we want to hear. Okay, so we're going to move on to quality time. So quality time is kind of what. So in the book, one of the things that they talked about was dialects, different dialects of these. And so I'm going to go through two dialects. One of them is what I think most of us would think of, which is quality time, meaning we're not watching TV together. We're not just in the same space, we're actually connecting. So the TV's off we're connecting or we're on date night, where it's. It's the two of us. There's no distractions. It's like we are connecting. That's what we're doing here. And. And that's great. And one of the other dialects that they talked about, which I found interesting because I hadn't remember, this is one of them. But one of the other ones they talked about was doing an activity that one of you loves, and the other one might not love it, so if you hate it, obviously don't do it. But one of the examples they gave was one woman loved to go to the symphony. She really. It just meant a lot to her. It was a beautiful environment. She loved the. She liked dressing up. She liked the musicians. She just. She loved going to the symphony. And her husband didn't love going to the symphony, but he would do it because he loved her. So quality time for them was going to this thing that she loves doing that he's willing to do because he loves her. Right? Or hiking or something. It doesn't really matter what the activity is, but it's something that the person loves doing that they would love company on. And I think a lot of us, especially in our culture, in the individualistic culture that we have, a lot of times it's like, I'm not really into that. Like, I don't really want to. I don't really want to go, can you go with one of your friends? And that's fine. I'm not saying you have to be joined at the hip and do everything, but I thought it was interesting that that is also quality time, because it's something that really lights that person up, and you are supporting them in that. And there's a way that you are loving them by attending with them. And I think this is something that it's worth being explicit about and talking about with. With partners, because if it feels like I'm dragging you to the symphony, I don't feel loved. And if. If I know that you don't really love the symphony, but you really love me. And it's not just you feel obligated. It's actually like, no, I choose to go with you because I know it's important to you and I care about you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I. Is definitely one we've played with. You know, I'm a. I've got something. I'm a big movie guy. I'm a big Pearl Jam guy. You know, things that just aren't particularly Violet's thing. But she'll go and, you know, we've had some great experiences there. And there's definitely, you know, I remember taking her to an oyster joint in the South Bay or some point for her birthday once. And, you know, I see food in me or not friends in any shape or form. It's like, not the food I would go to, but she loves it, right? She loves it. So, you know how I like to think about this on the. What I would kind of call the high side, like you said, of, like, not dragging. It's like, what does make that experience for me is I get to enjoy how lit up my partner is in the experience. And in a way, it actually allows me to see some. A part of them that I wouldn't see otherwise. So it's. There is a type of intimacy there, even if it's not my thing and even if I'm not doing that all the time. To be able to plug in there on occasion is really important because there are some things we sync up on and there are some things we don't sync up on. But getting to experience her energy in the things she does get lit up by has been important to me, and vice versa. And that's stuff we've done, you know, for each other. Sometimes when it's not our natural, go to the other thing. I like to think about this in terms of quality time. I think more on the. The first camera. What you said dialect is like refreshment. There's just certain things we can do with each other that actually, like, refresh and nourish our souls. That's, like, part of the quality time we do align on where it's. It's like a specific kind of thing that just really deeply rejuvenates us. You know, we spent a lot of time this summer and, you know, you'd think we do it all the time living in la, but we actually, like, went out to Malibu and went to some beaches and, like, took the time to get out there. We're both like, yeah, wow. This is, like, deeply refreshing to us in. In a way that it, like, greatly improves the quality of our life. And that was a specific kind of time that we didn't always necessarily do because there'd be, you know, kids and busy and, oh, we could just hang out at home or go to a park nearby. But that was something we've. We've started to highlight. Like, what are those things? Or, you know, for us, like, the one, two or three times a year of just, like, heading off and getting an Airbnb somewhere and, like, really getting some novelty is part of the quality quality time we've discovered as well.
Melanie Curtin: I was going to mention that I have something I have admired about your couple. Couple hood is, I think more before Ruby. But yeah, I remember getting really nice photos of you and Violet and Mae Mei, your dog, in. Yeah. Just beautiful locations. And it felt pretty often that you would get away for two or three days and just be felt very much like somewhere in nature together, exploring. Somewhere in nature together, exploring. There's something definitely that I would say is quality time there around. You know, we're not just doing chores around the house or, you know, doing quote unquote, normal things. We're in a new place together and we're exploring. Even if that's just like, let's go to this gastropub. Right. Let's. You know. But just. That feels very much like we are experiencing a part of the world together. And that is to me, I think that dialect of quality time. So one of them is sort of, we are together and I'm putting my attention on you and you're putting your attention on me. The other one is we are in the world exploring it together. We are experiencing something together. And that can be very powerful and also great for memories. Hey, remember that time? It's. It's a. Can be really touching. Yeah. Okay, so next up is Acts of Service, which is interesting. I remember listening to one of the stories where there was a woman, you know, complaining about her man and how he just. He didn't really. It seemed like he didn't really care about her. He didn't notice her. She was just feeling really missed. Like, I don't really know why he's with me. Like, it doesn't really make any sense to me. And he was like. But I, like, I make sure that there's always gas in the car, and I always make sure that your favorite chocolate is stocked in the pantry. And I. He listed like six things that he did to try to love her, to try to express love. And she didn't realize that that was because he loved her like she. In her world. It was. It was just like, oh, I thought you just put gas in the car because you put gas in the car. Didn't realize I was in that equation anywhere. I didn't know. I thought you just picked up the chocolate when you were at the store because it was on the list. I didn't know it was because you were thinking of me because you want me to be happy. So there was a lot of progress made in Their relationship of just. No, I actually like, care. That's why I do those things. I want your life to be easier. I don't want you to have to worry about stopping to get gas. I want you to be able to go wherever you're going and have it be easy. And she was really touched by that. She didn't know that that was part of what was happening, happening. So I think acts of service can. There's a lot of different things that fall under this, including what you said of someone cooking for you. So for you it feels like one of your main love languages is like, wow, someone made a meal for me, you know, I didn't have to do it myself. And it feels like love. It feels like love to you. And that's not necessarily going to be true for everyone. But I think, I do think that's pretty fairly common one of feeling loved, like being nourished, actually having home cooked food, you know. But yeah, I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that experience because I think that you, you did say that this is one of the ones that you tend to give. So can you speak a little bit about your motivation, right, of kind of being that person who's like, yeah, I put gas in the car because I care about you, not just because I randomly put gas in the car.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I, I think it's something I default to in a lot of ways of just trying to, in my own ways, like bring structure to our house, our family or our things. And you know, I'm not always good on the like small day to day details, but it's stuff like reorganizing a pantry or finding a way to organize our pot. Things that like annoy us over time. And then it's like, hey, I'm gonna go. I just can handle that and like figure something out. I really enjoy doing that. It relaxes my partner. It actually relaxes her. Or even this morning, I think an act of service I did was we had had a friend's dog over the last couple days and we've been very busy. And so there was a lot of dog poop in the backyard and it has to get cleaned up at some point. And I was like, well, I'm very busy today. I have a lot going on. I have to record this thing and if I don't do it, Violet's going to do it. So I'm gonna go clean up all the poop because what a nice thing for her to not have to clean up that poop. So I cleaned Up a bunch of dog poop, a couple bags. It's not. Not a small amount doing stuff like that. You know, I'm a tech guy, so a lot of this just comes naturally for me through, like, handling the technology of our house and trying to make my wife's computer work or hooking something up or getting a printer or her website. It's just like, these things I do because I know how to do them, that she doesn't always realize how complicated they are, how much work goes into them. It's just she feels the result of, oh, this just works. Right. And. And so that's. I think sometimes an acts of service, one where that can kind of get missed of, like, oh, yeah. No, actually, a lot of thought and intention went behind that and, like, why I was offering that to you. But, yeah, it's one that I just, like, kind of do probably most frequently, I would say for my partner, just, like, finding these small things and trying to handle these small things and. But they're not always the biggest, like, most romantic things either. So I think that's sometimes where they can. If it's not the one you're used to receiving, it's like, well, who cares? Like, in the same way that, like, words of affection are great, but it's like, it doesn't quite land in me the same way this happens with my partner, but on the receiving end, you know, and this. This isn't about, like, gender stereotypes or anything, but, like, there's been times where, you know, I've been working really hard, and I come out and there's like a. Yeah. A freshly cooked meal, and I'm just like, oh, my God. Like, or, you know, sometimes Violet's just like, we had to go on a trip or what? I had to go on a trip for something a couple weeks ago, a work thing. And I was. Again, I was really busy. I had client calls and stuff. And, like, I came out and she's like, oh, yeah. Like, I. I did all your laundry because I know you're probably not gonna have time before you leave tomorrow morning. And it was just like, oh, that's awesome. That, like, genuinely saved me time and energy. And it's not that I couldn't have done those things, but just the fact that she extended herself in that way really landed as. Wow. She was tracking me and she cares about me. And my life's now easier tonight because now we get to actually relax and spend a little more time with each other.
Melanie Curtin: Those are fantastic examples. I feel like all of those are fantastic. Examples like the dog poo. Like, that's such a good concrete. Like, you know what? If I don't do this, she's gonna do it. I just. I know that's gonna happen, and I want to save her that effort. That feels very much like what we're talking about of actual grounded love, not like, you know, getting someone flowers. Personally, I love flowers. I don't. There's nothing wrong with flowers. I'm not saying that. But there's something special about this category because it does feel like there's something that needs to be done. And I love you, I care about you, and so I'm going to do it so that either you don't have to, or like in the laundry example, I'm tracking what's going on with you. There's something that feels very loving about that. One active service that really touched me was when I. When I do recordings, I use a certain stand for my laptop, and my partner knew that I was coming over and I would have a recording right away, like, right when I arrived. And when I got there, the stand was already up and ready. I was like, oh, my God, you're tracking, like, my day and what's happening in my day. And you did this little thing that made me feel supported and loved. It's a really, like, sweet act of service. I know. For my. My father, for example, has totally opposite love languages to me, like, completely polar opposite. One of his is acts of service, and another one is quality time. And so when I. When his wife died, so my stepmother passed away, I was. I've never lived in the same state as him, and so I made it a point to fly across the country and be with him quarterly. You know, I. I thought to myself, I want to make sure he feels loved. I want to make sure he feels supported. Words don't do anything. I think he's much like you. Like, I'm on the phone, I'm telling him how much I love him and how much he means to me and blah, blah, blah. And I can just. I just feel like he's like, okay, yeah, doesn't really do anything at all. So I put my body in his space, right? I went physically and spent time, and I cleaned the bathrooms, and I cleaned the bathrooms because I love him, and he doesn't really do that. I mean, also, he doesn't really do that. But it wasn't because I wanted clean bathrooms. It was because I wanted him to know someone in your life loves you and cares about you and is willing to extend themselves for your comfort. It's important to me that you know that you are still loved even though you lost your partner. Another act of service. I don't know if this counts, but I'm going to name it. There's a. My partner and I often travel in a car that doesn't have that many spots for drinks. So you're holding drinks and it's kind of awkward. And I made this huffy, annoyed sound once about, like, just. I had too many things. I didn't say anything, but I just huffed. And he moved things around. He heard me huff and he moved things around. And then I had a spot for my stuff. I was like, oh, you did that for me. Like, that wasn't. You know, I felt really loved. Like, that was really meaningful because I was trying to figure it out in my head and I couldn't make the physics work. And he just cleared away. He made a way. I think there's. There's something. Yeah, really romantic about that, even though it's not what I think our culture would sort of say is romantic. So I'm curious, in your. In your relationship, when you two have talked about. About active service, do you feel like that has helped? Do you feel like that has helped? Like, Violet has kind of been like, oh, I. Now I see, you know, like, the technology stuff, or like, I didn't put together that. That was kind of an act of love to me. It was just a thing you do. Have you had conversations? Has that worked? I'm just curious about that particular.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, we've talked about it. And, you know, I've honestly, sometimes from a defensive place, like, hey, I'm doing all these things.
Melanie Curtin: And.
Jason Lange: And so she's much better at noticing it now and attuning to it and, you know, and it still doesn't quite give the golden light to her heart in the same way. So it's like she can acknowledge it and it's still. It's not quite the nutrients she needs. So that's part of the. The back and forth in the play of things that. But. But there are times, you know, she notices things and I, you know, I think one way this is showed up for us that, like, you know, another way you can think. I think of acts of service for whatever reason is coming for me. Because sometimes, you know, this. This does happen in our relationship where it's like something comes up and it's just like, oh, it's handled right. It's like, I've just already handled it. I figured it out. I did all the Front and she's like, oh great, right. Like that's one place. It's kind of like a weird energy, but it's just like, nope, that's already handled. Like it's just, it's already done. The paperwork's filed or the thing's done, that kind of stuff. In some sense, the bigger acts of service I think do land with her a little bit more of like, oh yeah, no, I already did our taxes or I did like this thing or I sorted that out. That's like, ah, that kind of relaxes her and, and that's been. It's sometimes easier for me to tackle the small things than the big things. So as I've taken on more of the big things, I, I think actually now that I think about it, it is landing in her more interesting.
Melanie Curtin: That's, that's, that's a good example of. This is an ongoing conversation, I think. And you know, I've been working with, with couples more. I've been, I've doing a course for couples and I have, you know, more of those experiences now. And one thing that we talk about is having regular check ins on like how is our relationship going? Not in a scary way, but just regular check ins. And I think this is something that's worth adding to that around love languages because just it's not a one and done conversation. It's an ongoing. How is this going? How's this going for you? How's this going for me? When was a time that you felt loved? You know, anything you're needing more of around this, you know, because I think that it's easy for us to assume that we have a conversation once and then oh, we did that, like we checked that off. But really it's like this is one of the deepest and most important parts of a relationship is how do we love each other well? How do we love each other well? And it does take time to figure that out and to learn how to do it well. And I think it's, I think it's also true for parents and children. You know, how to love our children. Well, that's, I think more getting older. But just who is this person? Not assuming that you know or that you know how love gets in with them. You know, it might be unexpected and paying attention to what actually works and what actually feels loving and nourishing is a huge, it's an act of maturity to grasp that not everyone is like me. Other people, things are important to different people in different ways. And that's one of the most important Lessons of this whole thing is how someone else feels loved, not the same as how I feel loved. And that's. That feels very mature. Okay. Active service. Is there anything else? Don't think so. On that one, I don't think there were dialects. The next one is gifts. I think this is one that is a little bit misunderstood. So gifts is not just physical. Physical items. And we'll start with that. But gifts is also the gift of my attention. The gift of my attention. So there was a story in the book about a woman who.
Jason Lange: Had.
Melanie Curtin: She had either. Oh, I think she just gotten. Had a baby. She and her husband had just had a baby. And she was talking to the counselor who wrote the book, and she was like, he loves softball more than he loves me. And he was asking her a little bit about what she meant. And she said, you know, the day that I had our son, he was there in the hospital until my son was born. And then he left to play softball. And same on the day of my mother's funeral, he left to play softball. And so the guy was asking, like, was he there for the actual birth? And she said yes. And was he there for the actual funeral? And she said yes. But then he left. And there was this bereft feeling of like, kind of feeling dropped, basically. And the counselor was pointing out that the gift of presence, the gift of just. And when I say presence, I mean just physically being there with someone, not necessarily interacting or doing a bunch of stuff, but just being with that person. And there was another example he gave of also a funeral, I think of a woman was. Her husband's parent had died and she was gonna. She had to travel for the funeral. And so she told her boss she was taking the whole day off, and the boss pushed back and was like, well, can't you come in in the afternoon? I really need you. And she said, no, this is important to my husband. I need to be there for him. And he felt deeply loved by that choice and the happy ending to that. She ended up replacing that boss because who the fuck would say that that's totally fucked up. But. But that's an example of a gift is of your attention. It's not just physical gifts. It's also a gift of your attention. But gifts. I have found a couple of my friends have this love language. And what I've noticed is it's not about the physical item. It's how well do I know them? They love receiving gifts that show that I know them. So a book about something that we talked about or an item of clothing from a place that we went together or. Or, you know, they talk about a certain animal a lot, like a jaguar. And I got. I got one of my friends a jaguar shirt, and she felt really seen. So gifts is not just about random gifts like flowers or chocolate, like our culture says, but, you know, really thinking about that person and what they love and getting a gift that reflects that. And I feel like you're quite strong at this category. You know, since I'm friends with Violet, can you say a little about. I. I just. I feel like you're pretty good at this, and not everyone is.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think I. I love what you just said about. It's not random. I would phrase that as it, like, thoughtfulness. Like, there's a feeling into the person and knowing the person. And then, you know, this is something we talk a lot about with our guys over time, particularly sometimes the way it lands in the feminine heart. But, like, tracking a person over time. So it's like, oh, you mentioned this one thing that one time, and then that's where I'm taking you to dinner for our anniversary. 6. Like, that's a gift in the sense of. Yeah, the dinner is important, but actually, what's super special about is. Oh, you remembered that thing that I said. You know, my friend had went or went to a thing like that, or just tracking, you know, what's going on in your partner and their journey and, you know, you know, like, with my wife, like, what energies or animals or things is she into at the moment? And then, you know, finding ways that. To bring that in to our life. So, yeah, thoughtfulness, I think, is a big way I like to put that. And, yeah, just, you know, again, it can be small things. It's just, you know, the other day I got her. At our retreat over the summer, the people that own the facility gave us a bar of chocolate. We tasted that was really, really, really good, and she loved it. And I ate the last piece in the car. Like, anyway, this is, like, a thing back then. But anyway, I found the chocolate, like, I don't know, a week or two ago, I saw it at the store. So I just got it while I was grocery shopping. And it was just. I just put it in the fridge on the top in an obvious spot. And I was just like, there's something in the fridge for you. And then she's like, ooh. And, oh, you remember. Da, da, da. That was the chocolate that so and so gave us. And, yeah, that was, like, a great example of kind of remembering I could have gotten her any chocolate, but I actually wouldn't have gotten her any chocolate. It was. Seeing that chocolate made me just brought me into that moment and how much she liked it. And so it's like, oh, I'm gonna get that chocolate. It's not. Not just about getting chocolate right now. It's about tracking that over time. So that. That. That's a big one. Yeah. And I tend to default to this one, just getting little things or trinkets or. Violet offered me one of these the other day. We were. We were at the doctor or something, and I had to wait, and she had to go out, and I've been off caffeine for a while, and anyway, she's like. On the way back, she's like, oh, and I got you a decaf latte. I was like, oh, yeah. It's like, I want that so bad. That's so great.
Melanie Curtin: That's really sweet. I really. I remember someone I was dating. I really like boba. I like bubble tea. And I remember at one point, he showed up at my place, and he had two. He had one for me and one for him. And I'll never forget it. And was probably $3.50. Like, this is a great example of gifts do not have to be expensive. We are not talking about expensive physical items. It's just like, oh, my God, you thought of me, and you have seen me order enough that you knew which flavor to get. And so I feel the love language of gifts. It's not really about gifts. It's about feeling seen. It's about feeling seen and feeling noticed.
Jason Lange: And.
Melanie Curtin: And really, that's what most of these are about at the end of the day. But that really struck me. And, yeah, my current partner, I lost my water bottle that I drink out of every day. And of course, you know, this is, like, pretty distressing because it's a really important thing. And when I don't have it, I get headaches because I get dehydrated. And he did a bunch of research, and he bought me, like, a really good water bottle. Like, one I probably wouldn't get myself. You know, that's like. It seals in a certain way so that it can be upside down and it won't spill. It's easy to drink out of. You don't have to unscrew the top. Like, it's. It's practically a very good water bottle. I thought that was super romantic. And he knows that I like pink, and so he got me a pink one, and I was like, oh, my God. You know, I am, and you care about me. And. And he did it without asking. He didn't, you know, hey, do you think I should? Or it was just sort of like, hey, I got you this. And there's something, I think, deeply nourishing about that of like, oh, you actually do know who I am. And you. And you care about me. And so that. That really landed as, like, love. And that's a good example of. The gifts that we're talking about are not elaborate. They're not huge, but they're meaningful.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think one way I'm realizing you might be able to talk about this in, particularly in terms of the giving thing is it's like, it's a manifestation of attunement. So it's like, I'm attuned to my partner, and I know their inner world, so I know what to bring to it. Like, that. That's it. And so I don't have to, like, necessarily ask for permission or just like, oh, yeah, no, I know this is going to work, like, because I know my partner. And so it's like, it's a. It's a manifestation of that, like a type of intimacy in that. Particularly in the. In the, you know, the giving. It's the expression of that attunement, which is what makes it meaningful. Even if it's right. Like you said, it could be a. It could be. It could be one of those, like, little travel pins or something. You. But, you know, your friend collects it or your partner collects it, so you got it, and it was, you know, it was 25 cents or something, but they're like, oh, you remembered me on that thing, and thank you. That's what makes it meaningful, is that it's like that. Yeah. It's just that. Remembering that, noticing.
Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And I think that I. Because words of affirmation are one of my primaries, I actually treasure the words that I receive from my partner or my friends. Like, I go back, I remember them like, I hold them close to my heart. So there's. There is something really satisfying about a physical item. And for me, words are so important to me. Words of affirmation are so important to me that I sort of treasure them in the same way. It's not a physical thing, but it's. It's so important to me. It's. I value it. I. It's deeply meaningful. It's. It's like something I hold close to my heart. So, yeah, I think I just wanted to name that because I do think that it can feel like oh, I'm not really doing anything if I'm just giving her praise or if I'm just, you know, naming things. But it's like, no, actually, like, I. I think about that later. Like, I keep thinking about that. Like, it really, really makes a difference. It really lands. I feel. I feel it in my heart.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And, you know, last thing it just hit me of, because as you can see as you listen to these, there's some overlap sometimes, right, between, like, what's a gift and what's an act of service? Like, it's not that these are like totally discrete categories, but even, you know, the. The gift of presence piece, right. Can be different from quality time. Like, you know, one thing I've heard, you know, from the hundreds of calls I've done with guys and, you know, we talk about family and lineage and stuff is one thing I think, particularly for boys, but I imagine for a lot of women too, that I, that I've heard from guys is things they remember of like, oh, yeah, mom or dad or they both. They came to every game, right? And so they weren't interacting. It wasn't quality time in the sense of, like, we were like, relating with each other or something. It was just like, literally I looked over and my parent was there at this thing, and then maybe I had to go back to school afterwards. So, like. But they took the time to be present for me in that way. That's. That's one of the. The forms, I think, of this kind of. It's like the gift of your presence. Like, you don't actually need me here, but I'm here because I care about you and I love you.
Melanie Curtin: That's right. That's a great point. That's a really good way of putting it. It's not that we're interacting, which would be quality time, Right. I'm putting attention on you. I'm listening to you talk about your day. We're doing something together. It's just, you showed up for me. You showed up for me. You showed up when it was important. You showed up for me. Like, there's something deeply satisfying about that. And I think that we can all relate to that moment of, oh, it came, it came. And I think there's also the, like, oh, they didn't come. That can be pretty devastating when there's something important and someone doesn't come. And even worse if they say they're going to come and they don't. So there can be something really restorative about showing up. Last one is physical touch. This Is also one of my primaries. I think there's an interesting dynamic here about physical touch is also a physiological hack to safety. Often for a lot of people, loving physical touch is a hack. It tells your system in a fast way. I am here with you. You can use words, and I love words, and words are great. And physical holding is deeply calming to many people's nervous system. So this is an interesting one because it's physiologically powerful if it's done well. And it's also more meaningful to certain people. You know, for some people, it lands more, and for other people, it lands less. I would say for me, it lands a lot. I remember one of my partners. Every time we got in the car, he reached for my hand. Every time. Like, there was never a time he didn't reach for my hand. And I felt deeply loved by that. I felt very secure in his care for me. From the very beginning of our relationship, there was. I never questioned, like, does he really like me? Is he into me? And that was one of the reasons why, was because every time he got in the car, he'd reach for my hand. So we were holding hands a lot of the time we were in the car. And there was something about him reaching for my hand that had me feel loved, right? It would have been different if I'd reached for his. Not that it wouldn't have worked, but there was something about, like, oh, he wants to touch me. He wants to be close to me. He wants to be connected to me. And that had me feel loved. There was an act of feeling him come towards me, right? Feeling him. Him initiate that contact felt really, really, really nourishing to me. And I think that's one of the. The most important things about giving and receiving love in the way that we're talking about is it has us feel more secure in the relationship. It has us feel more secure in the relationship if we're not. If it's not getting in, if we're missing each other. Like, you're loving me in a way I'm not receiving. I'm like, well, does he care? Does he care? Oh, my God, does he care? And then that ramps up my nervous system, which comes out as all the pokey stuff, Because I'm like, well, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe I made it all up. Maybe he doesn't love me anymore, right? He said something like, of course I love you. I married you. And I was like, so? People get divorced all the time. People cheat, like, just because you wanted to fuck me Two years ago doesn't mean you want to fuck me now. Of course I'm still insecure. Right? There's no guarantee. And so I think that that was really interesting because I had been in other relationships where that part hadn't been online, right. My partner hadn't reached for me in the car or patted me on the back or just. He wanted to be physically connected to me a lot. And I felt very secure with him in his love for me for the whole time we were together. And that was not true in other relationships. So I think there's something powerful about this whole discussion around people feeling secure in the relationship. So even if there's nothing quote, unquote, wrong, right, the person still is still into you and still loves you, still cares about you. If you're questioning it, then you're gonna. You're gonna have a response. You're gonna pull away or you're gonna nitpick or something's gonna happen versus deeply feeling secure. Then it's like, oh, my whole system's kind of like, this is okay. Everything's fine. All is well. Any comments?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, two pieces. One just kind of in general, what you're talking about, you know, of the kind of keeping the tank full, so to speak. I think this is a way you can. You know, you had our friend Dr. Glover on recently to talk about positive emotional tension. These are all ways to do that. All the love languages are ways where you can kind of create some tension in that circuit, which just means, like, energy's flowing. So these are ways you can kind of keep the tank full with your partner so that they don't have to revert to the poking to try to, like, find, like, what's still going on here. So these are very proactive, healthy things to. To do for your relationship. And, yeah, for physical touch, it's a huge one, you know, for. For me, not something I got a lot of as a kid, so something my nervous system was deeply craving when I did finally start connecting with women. And that I just need, you know, that the more I've done my work, the more I've learned I've needed it. And not just from my intimate partner. You know, I remember guys in one of my men's groups here in LA often finally tell a story of. We were, like, doing a weekend or something, you know, we're sharing our own stuff. And I literally just asked him, I was like, can all eight of you just pile on top of me? And, like, it was just the weight, you know, for like, five Minutes was so good. It was so good. It like so nourished me more than Talking for another 20 minutes would have. Right. It was just like, oh, that's what I needed. So my body needed. And in my relationship, we need it too. You know, we've been practicing giving each other monkey hugs. Like that's something I need, which is really awesome. Or you know, one of our go to's is in our partnership, what we call smushing, where it's just like I have Violet lie on top of me with her full weight. She loves it and I love it. And it like juices us up in a pretty deep way. And again for me, it just relaxes my whole body and then makes me more available for connection, for talking, for not being stressed out, for not being so up in my head, for being more present. It is one of the powerful areas. You know, we do share some similarity, my partner and I. You know, I would certainly also count sex as a, like a subset of physical touch, which is, you know, something she and I were explicit about very early in dating. If this is a priority, it's important for me to be in a relationship where this is something valued by both people. And so, you know, that's in our relationship suffers if that's not happening. You know, as I like to say, it kind of, it's the, it's kind of grease for the whole system. Like when it's there, it's just a lot of things are a lot easier. Like the stresses aren't quite as stressful. It's like the whole bucket gets bigger so we can hold more with each other. And I've also had to in my journey make sure to include non sexual touch with my partner because I think that's a trouble area for a lot of guys that the only time we're going for touch is when we want sex or something. And that can land in our partners not so well. So making time to, you know, just embrace or hug or kiss or when it's not going towards sex, I think is an important thing. We can practice as, as men in particular. But when both of those are firing, it's like just everything's so much easier.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. I think, yeah. I would just say, especially anyone that's listening, like children of neglect, emotional neglect or physical neglect. I think that's especially true of. You didn't get those touch needs met. You didn't get that physical touch need met. And so you didn't, you didn't. It wasn't installed. So it is something that needs to be practiced mindfully and does get easier as you practice it more mindfully. But that's. That's normal. That's you. That's normal. And it can. It can shift. You know, the other thing I was going to say was I think it's good for all of us to remember that we are mammals and we are descended from monkeys. And so even just like, picking lint off of someone's clothing. I know one of my partners really likes that. Like, it sounds small, but it actually feels really satisfying for him. Brushing hair. Brushing your partner's hair or having them brush your hair can be really soothing. There's a lot of soothing soothingness about the scalp. Again, kind of just remembering, like, we were physical beings, we're mammals, and there's a lot of. Yeah, just. It's physiologically faster, like you said to do some smushing than to, like, talk about something you're stressed out about. It's like, just lay on top of me for two minutes and my system's like. Like, I'm not alone. I'm held. And then everything else kind of gets easier. So I think this is a good example, too, of actually having a conversation with a partner about, what do you find soothing? What kinds of physical touch do you find soothing? And you don't even have to know everything in that moment. But I think that hair brushing is a great example of. I remember being really anxious and stressed out. I was with a group of friends and we were going to watch a movie, and I was just irritated and annoyed and anxious. And one of my friends brushed my hair for, like, 30 minutes, and I felt completely different. Completely different. We didn't talk about what was going on. Nothing changed in my life, but I felt way better. And I remember notating, like, oh, this is something I need to remember because it's a pretty easy ask, right? Like, even just brushing your partner's hair while you're watching a show or something else is going on. It's a physiological way to help soothe our systems. And most of us are pretty anxious, I would say. In the modern world, we have dings and pings coming in all the time. Just constant stimulation. So most of our nervous systems are upregulated and we need more downregulation. We need more of that. We don't need more stimulation most of the time.
Jason Lange: Yeah. There was just a piece of research that I saw online last week about this. Specifically. It's called aloe grooming. So when you, like, groom each other is a specific term. So it's Non sexual physical touch that's around grooming. And out of the different types of touch, it's actually the, the one that ranked the highest for oxytocin. So like getting your hair brushed, beard done. I remember, you know, as a teenager and a touch absent household, I, I can still viscerally remember when you go get a haircut and they'd wash your hair and just the hands on the scalp of like, whoa. Like, you know, when you haven't had any touch, that's like a drug of like holy, holy cow. That was powerful. That was one of the only places I was getting it. But all those small types of grooming things really like can have a massive impact. Like massive, massive impact of which I, you know, I'd consider like massage and stuff like that kind of a subset of that as well of just, you know, rubbing. I know a lot of, a lot of women, my partner included, like love it if I just rub her feet. Just like a quick, you know, just. Yeah, you had a hard day. Rub doesn't take much and just observe.
Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. So yeah, as we start to wrap up, I'm going to drop a few things in the show notes if you're interested in some of the things that we talked about. I think that that touch. Let's coordinate on that after because I'd like to drop that in. And then I do think it's worth reading the book the Five Love Languages. It's not very long if you found this compelling. I think there are some other examples in there that are powerful. So I do recommend that I'd say you can kind of skip the intro chapter and just go straight to the Five Love Languages and the conclusion. And then if you are interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men training and take our free training. It's a good way of going a little bit deeper than the podcast. I would say that this whole discussion and love Languages, it's not just about love between a couple, it's also about friends, family members, all of that. And one thing that I've been really inspired by is the number of our clients that have grown tremendously in our work together and have carried that growth forward in their family system. So they have led discussions that have never been led or they've leaned in in a different way or set healthy boundaries. Just I've been really inspired by how growth work impacts everyone around the person that's doing it. So to me it feels like a deep act of service. To grow yourself as an individual and to get help doing that is a wise thing to do, in my opinion, because we can't do everything ourselves. We weren't meant to. It's not supposed to be like that. And having a community, having other people that are also growing, does something to our system. It just inspires us. We see other people. There's a reason that masterminds and sort of small groups of people have been around forever. And there's, there's that quote about, you know, never doubt what a small, committed group of citizens can, can accomplish. It's the only thing that has ever changed the world. That's. There's something about that. So if you're interested, you go to Evolutionary Men Slash training, and you can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com.
