180: Top 3 things we’ve learned after coaching men on sex & relationships for years | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Guys will kind of come to us and they'll tell us about some of the crazy stuff they've survived, and we'll be like, wow, it's really incredible that with all of that, you've managed to lead yourself here from the stuff you were giving from your family of origin or your culture or society, and, like, you should be really proud of yourself.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. This one is a bit of a retrospective as we start to close out 2021. Jason and I have been reflecting on all of our work coaching men for years on sex and relationships, and we wanted to kind of do a little bit of a reflection episode on just what the top three things are that we've learned. There's two of us, so top three for each. That makes six. So we're going to sort of trade off and talk about the top three things we've learned as sex and relationship coaches over, I don't know, the past almost decade for me. And you've been coaching and working with men for years and years, so I think this will be fun and I'm excited to dive in. So do you want to start or shall I?

Jason Lange: I'm happy to start. And so, yeah, this kind of, you know, the genesis of this was as we're about to wrap another year, we've worked with quite a few men together in the specific way we work together at this point, and it's really thinking about, wow, some of the lessons we've kind of seen emerge through the actual transformation of men, not just our ideas about it. And so the, you know, the. The first one I wanted to share, the first thing that just has really become super clear over the years, is that there are just no shortcuts when it comes to this type of transformation. It really is all about the reps. What I mean by reps is putting in the time and energy of doing the grunt work of what we tend to work with men around of embodiment, presence and communication in that, you know, the men we've really seen transform, they're the ones that have, quite simply, just put the time in. Like, really put the time in. And while you know it, sometimes I kind of wish we could have some kind of super sexy advertising of just promising, like, all the magic. Really easy. Doesn't necessarily work that way. Like, you have to put that time in. And, you know, with that, this idea of putting in the reps, there's actually kind of a. An unquantifiable timeline to that is what I've seen. And, you know, I'm particularly thinking of two different clients we've worked with, one one of whom came to us not having much experience at all with relationships. And oftentimes an edge was just even opening up to us and the other men in the program. And he just really showed up. Like, he really worked that edge. He really got to know us. He really took the work we taught seriously and implemented it. And I think it was barely eight or nine months after he's now in an incredible, satisfying, sexually fulfilling relationship that he had kind of always wanted. And then on the kind of slightly other end of the spectrum to that same kind of story, a guy who came to us and was just doing it, just really putting in the time, putting in the energy, showing up to our calls, doing everything he could do while he worked with us and. And continued to do that even as he became part of our alumni program and just had a lot of, like, really close experiences to creating the relationship he wanted. But it never quite clicked, but he just really stayed with it. And he was an example of, like, three years later, it finally happened. And he. He's one of the many guys I would often have to say to, you know, part of the magic of doing this, reps, is like, we learn to just show up with our truth, with our presence, and we just kind of put it all out there. And that's. That's the process. That's the win. That's the real commitment that we make in that whatever happens, once we've put ourselves out there, particularly with someone we want to date, we just kind of have to let go of that. And that, you know, there were many times I was on the phone with him even after our official work had closed. Rose, like, you know, it's going to feel crazy because one day you're going to. You're just going to keep doing exactly what you're doing, all the same things. Everything that feels so hopeless right now. And there's going to be a woman who's just a yes. Every invitation, every act of leadership, she's going to be a yes to you. And it's going to actually feel super easy in that moment, even though right there, all those reps went in ahead of time. And he's a great example of that woman showed up. And he's in that incredibly satisfying relationship now with someone who sees all the leadership he brings and all the work he put into himself to create it.

Melanie Curtin: I really like that analogy of reps because it's almost like the two men you mentioned, for example, they weren't ready yet for a healthy, serious relationship before the coaching work. And I think the coaching work solidified and brought forth parts of them, and it opened them up in a certain way so that when she showed up, they showed up. And that's the magic, is it's kind of like being ready to lift the heavy thing when you've put in the reps, you're strong enough, you're there, you're ready. And it's so. It's. It's a. It's a magical interaction of when life brings you something that you really desire. Right? Let's say a woman that you want to be in a relationship with, can you move towards her? Can you lead? And can you bring your sexual energy and your heart at the same time? Can you show up? And I think that those are both great examples of men who before weren't really able to do that, and after they were. And so it wasn't. It wasn't magical. Right? It wasn't like, on the day that the program ended, they were in the most fulfilling relationship of their lives, but they were ready, they were prepared. And so when. When it happened, man, they took that ball and they ran with it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a great point. I think that's a pretty good segue to my first lesson. Biggest lesson that I've learned, which is just how common the freeze state is in men. I think that before coaching men, I had some preconceived notions and I didn't really understand. Sometimes I could sense that, say, a man was interested in me, but he would never ask me out, or he would just kind of be passive. Really, really passive. And in coaching men, I've come to realize that there's a lot of trauma in the world, and men have undergone a lot of trauma. And one of the ways that shows up is passivity, is holding back, is freezing the freeze state, whether that's in sex or just in life or in the. Or pursuing someone you're attracted to. You know, I'm thinking of one guy. I kept having this image in my mind when we were working with him of. It was like watching him come to life. It was like, very much. And I don't play a lot of video games. I'm not a big gamer, but I kept having this image of, you know, when you're. When you're playing a video game and the characters just standing on the screen and you haven't moved them anywhere yet. They're just standing there. They exist and they're in the world, but they're not doing anything. It felt a little bit like, oh, this man has been. And this man was probably in his mid to late 20s. This man has been stuck in kind of a free state over an overall free state for a long time. And. And through the course of the program, I felt like I got to see him emerge and start moving in a direction. He got a new job. He lost a bunch of. We. He went on his first date ever of his life during the course of the program, and it was like, yeah, watching that avatar start to move through the world and meet challenges and jump over streams and do things that he'd never done before. And he wasn't the only one like that. There were multiple men that I realized had been. Had been living in a free state or would go into a free state when it came to anyone they were attracted to really, or even necessarily. The prospect of dating right, getting on an app, doing the actions it takes to. To get started felt so overwhelming that they would just check out. And I think it's had me have a lot more compassion for that. The free state that I think a lot of us can go into around a lot of different things, not just sex and relationships, but, yeah, it had me have more compassion for recognizing when, yeah, maybe this man is interested in me, but he's frozen. There's a. There's a way that he needs to. He needs to do some work. He needs to get some guidance and some ment. Maybe some therapy to help him break. Break through that right, to help him grow beyond that free state. And I honestly believe that, you know, it takes some love. It actually takes love. It's. It's. I think there's a. There's a. The word. There's a tendency, I think, when we're talking about the masculine in our culture to. To kind of be harsh, like, oh, just break through your fear. You know, and I do think that's appropriate sometimes. And what I've seen is that us and our group witnessing that man and being with him and really creating a space of love, that's what helps him kind of relax into his body. So it's really more of a relaxing than a, you know, I'm going to break through this thing and, you know, break the glass or break the. I saw one a reality TV show or something where they drew out all their fears on a piece of paper. And then they're like, punch the piece of paper. And I thought to myself, I mean, kinda, but it's unrealistic to think that you're just never gonna have these fears again. It's more that they dissipate and they go down in terms of the volume. It's not that one day you wake up and you're never afraid to approach someone you're attracted to. That's not, that's not the case. And this one other client that we had, I think he would, yeah, he would freeze a bit when it came to women he was attracted to. And my favorite story was he said, is one of the things we talk about and teaches to follow the energy so that when you do, you know, catch eyes with someone, you just, you just go over there. You just go over there. Just go over there. You don't have to have it all figured out. And he said that he was, he was somewhere, I think it was like a beer garden or something, and he caught eyes with a woman and he thought of my voice, just go over there. And so he did. By the time he got there, he just said hello. That was it. Hello. I think they ended up dating, but I really loved that just he had built enough confidence and he was embodied enough at that point that he could just go over there because there's something that your body's telling you in that free state, it's. There is a real fear there. There is a real. That's real. And it, it melts with love, not with harshness.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that. And what I love about that story there is, you know, your voice is a version the voice he heard of you in the head of like the power of community as well in that. Right. So one thing we have had different men come to us before who have, you know, had the free state is some of them have done the kind of old school method which was kind of the more pickup artist mid 2000s method of like go out and blast yourself through the fear. Just like go out to a random bar and we're literally going to push you and you're going to do approaches until you're not afraid anymore. And what I've tended to see in guys is that doesn't actually address the fear or the feelings underneath. It's actually still a fear response. It's just counterphobic, where instead of freezing from the fear, I just barrel over it and push through it. And it doesn't really address that thing underneath, which we tend to work with men more on, like, yeah, what's happening happening underneath that? Because if you don't have a relationship to that, nothing's really going to change long term. And there's something about the power of community because. Right. I've. I've heard this from guys on our men's groups as well, of whether it's your voice, my voice, or just the feeling of their brothers, like, oh, what would they. Like they would be right here with me and they'd say, go over there. But it's not like the pickup, like, go over there, or you're da, da, da, da. It's more like, hey, man, like, you're awesome. Like, you're awesome. You should do this. And then that'll often kind of help. Help them get over there. And the other thing I'll share with that, that seems to impact a lot of guys around the Free State in general around dating, is they have somewhere to land on the other side if it doesn't work. They get to connect to their guys and just talk about, like, hey, I made an approach. It went awesome. Or it didn't go awesome. A girl at the gym and they can like break it down and these guys get it. They just get it. And that alone actually starts to heal. The Free State thing, where it's like, oh, I'm not a bad person, or I'm not a less of a man because sometimes I get scared or nervous approaching.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. And I think that relates to the. That sense of no regrets. Right. You've talked about this multiple times. A lot of the men that we've worked with have regrets around. Yeah. Around having frozen in the past. I didn't go for it. I didn't ask out the women I really wanted. I didn't really go after what I. What I knew that I wanted. I went after things I knew I could probably get or nothing at all. And that leaving it all on the court idea of the win isn't getting the yes from the woman you approach. The win is approaching. The win is that you were brave enough to do it, that you that's the win. And I think that's a shift I've seen men make so that even if it stings when they feel rejected, at least they're in the game, right? They're moving through the world kind of. Yeah. In this. In that same way of. They're not frozen anymore. They're moving, they're acting, they're actually on the court. And that's really wonderful to witness. I'm thinking about a man who. Yeah, this was a great. This is also a great story. I got a message from him. It was like a series of messages about his experience on the dance floor. He's like, I went to this club, and I was on the dance floor, and I was dancing with this woman, and then I just felt the moment. I felt it and I kissed her, and she kissed me back. And we had this hot makeout session on the dance floor. I've never done that before. And you could just sense how in the past he would have talked himself out of it. Oh, she's not interested. Oh, there's, you know, there's no way she was looking at me and all. Every step along the way, he just followed the energy. Every step, he was in his body. He followed this moment, that moment, this moment. And it led to this hot makeout. And it was such a freeing experience for him because I don't think he'd ever really allowed himself to. Yeah. To just follow the energy and actually be present enough to feel it and then act on it. So there have been some great, fun messages about. Yeah, just following the energy. That there's actually probably women that are already interested that you're just, you know, too. Too frozen to kind of notice. Because when you're frozen, you're not really in your body and you're not really present to what's actually happening, which sometimes is interesting.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's a great distinction. That part of what we do when we help guys get in their body is actually feel what's there and see some opportunities that they sometimes aren't seeing that are there. My next one relates to just some of the most powerful moments I think we've gotten to share with men in our program in it has to do with this. I've kind of been in the men's work world for a while now, so sometimes I'm just swimming in the sea that I already know. And what's been amazing to see and somewhat surprising is just really how much men hold and often don't share and even minimize their experiences in the world. Like oftentimes they're painful experiences or things that they feel shame around that they really just kind of hold it all very close to the chest. And sometimes it shocked me that they've done it for so long. They've actually kind of normalized something that is actually a huge deal, an experience. They've survived an encounter. They had all kinds of different stuff, which we get to find out in some of the work we specifically do with men. And it's oftentimes those things that they have the most resistance or fear or shame around being open around that. When they do open to the group, open to us around that, it actually creates the most connection and transformation with them in the group. This is something we've actually seen physiologically. I can think of a couple men in specific who, in a practice we do, with the guys on our calls, shared things with us and with the other men that they've actually never told any other human being before. And even just that. Right. That there are men moving through the world who have these incredibly sometimes painful or powerful experiences that just no one else even knows about. That when they've shared that there's like an actual physiological change. We see their bodies relax and open and breath and vitality. It's pretty incredible to see when the thing they've been most afraid to put out there, they put out there and it's held and they're held.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm remembering some moments with men where I can't believe that they went through that and I can't believe that they went through that and that they weren't. That they weren't held at the time that they went through it. Right. Like, there have been multiple men who. Something happened and then they sort of ran away. Not ran away from home, but ran to a closet or a tree house or some other location and kind of just were alone after this thing. And there wasn't really someone there to be with them. And I've really. My heart has been really touched by being able to actually be with that man in the present moment around that. Because I think there's something so healing, as you're saying about. Here's this maybe thing that I've thought of as ugly. Right. This ugly thing that happened and for it to just be witnessed, like you said. I think I've seen a lot of men feel lighter on the other side and really kind of. It's like putting down a really heavy backpack that they've been carrying, as you said, for sometimes decades. I think this relates to something that has Surprised me, which is how many men have survived domestic violence either in their childhood and. Or in previous relationships with women. And I think that's something we don't discussed as a culture very much. I think there's a lot of cultural shame around it for men. And yeah, that's been another thing that has been very surprising to me is just the rate of that, how prevalent it has been.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I think that's another way to kind of sum this up in that, like, I think I've been shocked by how powerfully, for better or worse, the masculine can normalize certain experiences and just kind of make them. Well, I can deal with this. It's okay. And lose a kind of sense of calibration with, like, how significant of an impact a relationship or an experience or something they had to deal with really was in that sometimes it's been pretty incredible in the group to see as other men reflect to them, like, wow, I can't believe you survived that, or I don't know how you've been able to tolerate that, or X, Y or Z, that the lights start kind of turning back on for them of like, yeah, that really was a big deal. And that's no wonder why I've struggled with X or Y or Z, because that was something that deeply made an impact on me that I had just kind of buttoned down the hatches on, batten down the hatches on and normalized. But again, like, as we, as they give it air with us like that, that alchemy that just happens is pretty incredible.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's connected to my next thing that surprised me, which was just how many men are in sexless relationships. And of course, you know, we're probably biased given the industry we're in, but I think that, you know, it's true that when I look at the landscape of folks who are married or in long term committed relationships, I think my perception before was generally these people are having sex. And now I think to myself, there is no guarantee. You know, I'm looking at the research, and the research shows that about 10 to 15% of married people are in sexless marriages. And I think that number's low, actually. And the way psychologists define a sexless relationship is if you're having sex 10 times a year or less. So if you're having sex less than once a month, you're in a sexless relationship. So even if it's. It's basically you're just not getting enough. And I think that's related to what I've come to. To really understand about men. Again, I think I had a skewed perception of what men actually want and need before actually working with men. Because I grew up in the. In the west, and I have certain ways I thought about men only want sex, or men or men are pigs. Like all of that stuff that we see in sitcoms, it does.

Jason Lange: It's.

Melanie Curtin: Did you know how awesome you are?

Jason Lange: Yeah, kind of.

Melanie Curtin: That huge heart you have a huge, beautiful, shining heart. And you are full of humility and you have grace to offer. I mean, I think I know which man you're talking about, and I. I know exactly what you're saying, which is just holding up a mirror and showing a man how awesome he is is actually transformative. If he's never had that or even if he's only had some of it or for a little while or there's just something special about that. And I'm thinking about one of our clients who a few months ago said something like, I think I'm finally genuinely feeling good about who I am. And that has changed everything. And I thought, yes, that's the magic. It's not that you're a different person. Transformation doesn't mean you're a different person. It just means you're more of who you are. Right. It's like you're you with the volume turned up. And that makes everything, everything easier. It's easier to know who's a match for you and who's not. It's easier to know, you know, what kind of job you want or whether this manager is right for you or not, when you are really you, when you're making yourself small or tamping things down or pretending things don't bother you. Or all the rest of it, it's a lot harder. So I really loved that comment, and I really, I really love. Yeah. Watching men become more of who they are.

Jason Lange: And it manifests in something, you know, we often tell our guys and they don't necessarily believe right away of this thing. I like to say if you guys get to be picky because sometimes the worldview they're coming in with, some of the men we work with is it's really hard to find good women, or they don't want to be with me, or they only want X, Y or Z or something. And partly connected to this as we kind of see their depth in a way oftentimes that not other people do that. Hey, actually, that part of you that can be really vulnerable or sensitive in cares, that's actually not weakness. That is your strength. That they start to believe that and they get it right. And that. Oh, wow. Yeah, I. I do actually have so much to offer here. And we're like, yes, see, we've been telling you that from the beginning. And then when it clicks, though, it's just so, so gratifying to see in a man when he, like, settles him to himself in that way, which. Right, again, it's not that we're suddenly perfect or fixed or don't have any problems, but there's like a. Oh, yeah, I now know why a smart, sexy, sensitive woman would be blessed to be with me. And I know that in my body. And that's often what we see pretty early on in guys, because we've just been doing this work a long time. And the type of men we work with, honestly, we really only work with guys like this. And we just kind of then are kind of holding that vision. It's like we got a pocket full of gold here. We, like, know all this greatness is coming. And it's kind of like, you know, we're just kind of excited and excited for them to kind of have the aha of like, yeah, see, we told you. You're awesome.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's so great. I think that's a pretty good segue to my last one, which is something that has surprised me is truly how it's never too late. And I think this was epitomized by a client we had in his 70s who really was working through some grief when we first started with him. And I think that there was a way he wasn't quite sure about what he wanted, and there was some unfelt feelings. And long story short, I think he grew a lot through the program and through the connections with the other men. And there was. Yeah, there was. There. He was having some success on the apps. Right. He was going out with different women, and of course, there were ones that triggered different things for him. The one that was sort of out of reach or he kind of recognized, like, this is. There's an archetype here. There's a type that is attractive to me and maybe not actually the best fit.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: Because one thing that you and I have talked about, that we talk about with our guys is how do you feel when you're with her? You know, if you feel stressed out and anxious, maybe she's not the right fit. Right. If you feel. If you feel comfortable and safe, you know, that's generally going to be a better fit. But there can be something intoxicating about that. That type that makes you feel, you know, that unattainable type. So long story short, he was dating multiple women and kind of having different experiences, and then ultimately he was deepening with one woman and he decided on his own. You know what? I'm going to get off the apps. I really want to see where this goes. And it's kind of a beautiful thing because I think, again, in our culture, there's a lot of pressure to. To do things when you're young, to have it all figured out when you're young, to know exactly where you're going and how to get there, to, you know, speaking as a woman, to stay beautiful for a long time. Right. And there's just a lot of youth focus in our culture. And I think there's not a lot said about the later decades in life. And there was something so beautiful about seeing someone in his 70s kind of get this new gift of connection. Right. The quality of connection that he had, the way he was leading with vulnerability in that new relationship was totally different. Was totally different. And he. I remember on one of the calls saying to some of the younger guys, I wish I'd had this when I was younger. You know, you're so lucky that you're here, that 25 or 32 or whatever. And, yeah, I guess it was just surprising to me how. How much there is. How much there is to explore and to continue to explore. It doesn't matter what age you are. It really doesn't. It truly is never too late. And the. The amount of depth and connection and expansion that's possible doesn't diminish as you age. I'm willing to guess that the woman he was relating with probably had experiences with him that she'd never had because of the way he was leading. And that's. Yeah, I just found that really inspiring.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's been, it's just been so cool to witness that. And you know, it reminds me of kind of a somewhat related lesson that's kind of the in there of pretty much every guy thinks it's too late no matter what age they are. There's like, oh, I'm behind, I never did the thing or I can't ever have it like that. That's actually pretty consistent across ages. And then this thing that, you know, I've gotten, we've gotten to share with guys of, you know, certainly my belief that I have seen born out of this like reminder that like time is elastic in that we think, oh, it's too late or I'm not going to have enough years. And there's something that happens that when we get in that right relationship with the right person, three months with them can feel like years. Right. And we've had almost verbatim many men.

Melanie Curtin: Say to us, many men, yes, I.

Jason Lange: Felt as much connection in this date or in this two months with this new woman than I did in entire decade long relationships or marriages.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And a lot of that is because how the men were leading, how they learned to lead changed everything. It changed everything. And that's the alchemy between people is when a man learns to lead, well, everything changes. Everything changes. The way it could be the same person and how they're relating with you will change. And that's something that I really also witnessed repeatedly is so many men that we work with that are fathers have said, this work is making me a better father, it's making me a better parent, it's changing the way I relate to my kids and my coworkers. It's more comprehensive than just relationships and dating and sex. It's like you becoming again more of yourself, dropped into your body, moving with your actual power, which is not domination, but your power, your, your drive is magical. And it does change the chemistry in the room. It changes how you're showing up with others and that changes how they show up with you. So that's been something also that I've loved witnessing is, wow, how, how, what a ripple effect it has on, on, on the people around these men.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's, it's, it's so cool. Cause oftentimes, you know, we don't lead with that necessarily, but we kind of know. And so when things start happening with career or other family members or other connections in addition to Dating and relationships, it's like, yeah, you know, we kind of knew that would happen for you. You know, guys tend to make more money and have better conversations with people they care about and like, just overall their life becomes more nourishing and enriching in a way that just kind of spirals up.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So we're going to start to wrap up here. I realize I probably should have mentioned this at the beginning, but Jason and I are co coaches and we have a program for men if you're a new listener. This was our retrospective on men we've worked with through that program. And if you're interested, you can actually take a free training that is at Evolutionary Men Training and there's more information there and you can set up a call through there and everything like that. So if you are interested in more, you can go to Evolutionary Men training. Is there anything I missed or anything you want to add?

Jason Lange: I think that that mostly covers it. You know, we'd love to chat with you and talk and see where you're at and honestly just support you. Like, Mel and I love what we do, love what we get to do. So we are always so excited when guys from the podcast book a call or something and we get to just hear their story a little bit and hold that story with them and even better when they work with us. And my favorite thing about guys working with us is getting to connect them with our community, which is just incredible.

Melanie Curtin: That's true. Cool. And I think that there was one last thing we wanted to share about, you know, just ending the year better than you started it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So, you know, oftentimes it's this time of year where January is coming up and there's kind of a feeling of for many men, I didn't do the things I wanted to do or I had all these goals and I didn't get there. And it can be a hard time. You know, the holidays come and there's just a lot gets stirred up in November and December we've seen for guys. And part of our inspiration for sharing this was just a reminder that you can still have time to end this year on the right foot in a stronger place by getting support from us, honestly. And that this is a really good time to do it. So if you're, you know, if you feel that, that kind of calling, you know, act now. You don't have to wait till January in that sense. Like there's so much that can happen between now and then. And truth be told, because of the holidays and often a lot of family connections. It's an awesome time to have community support. That's one thing. That's another. Bonus we've seen is how much easier it is for men to relate to their. Their families of origin when they have our family at their sides, too.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. It's a rich time to explore the inner landscape. Okay. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.