179: Why’s it so hard for me to approach my wife/partner for sex? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: I've even had guys who, you know, it's pretty heartbreaking that their wife's like, well, you know, I don't want that, so go ahead and get those needs met elsewhere. And you would think that's every guy's fantasy. And some guys, sure, but a lot of men, it's not. They don't want to just have a thing on the side. They want to be emotionally connected.

Melanie Curtin: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. This one is one that we've been wanting to do for a while because it's a pattern I think that we've noticed. Jason's going to speak to it in his personal relationship life, but I think we've also seen it and witnessed it in many of our clients. That has to do with approaching a long term partner for sex. I think there's a perception like, okay, we're together and now we're committed. We're really in this. And so it should be easy to initiate sex. It should be pretty straightforward and simple, right? You're with someone who's already chosen you, they've committed to you in some capacity, there's an understanding there, it's assumed, there's some level of trust that's built up. And so there's a perception that it should be easy and yet there's actually can be kind of a lot of angst around it. So, yeah, I would love to hear from you, Jason, about, you know, what you noticed in terms of when it started to get hard and what you noticed about that pattern in your relationships.

Jason Lange: Yeah, so this, this first happened with a girl I was dating and it was, you know, we didn't even date super long, I don't know, eight months maybe. And it was around the like four month mark when we had kind of settled in, I would say to the relationship and I noticed it just became a lot harder for me to initiate sex even though I wanted it like frequently. I would often be laying there in bed, like kind of frozen and not really know how to initiate. And that happened again in the longer term relationship I was in next where again things started hot and heavy. And then I think for us that time it was about six months in, we kind of became boyfriend and girlfriend and settled down and same thing, you know. I noticed that initiating sex became a bigger challenge for me and then probably the strongest case example case would be when I got married. So my current partner and we had known each other for, I don't know, a year and a half by the time we got married and, or maybe more. I can't quite remember, and it was very noticeable. So we. Let's see, we got. We moved in with each other about six months before we got married. And so it actually kind of started around the time we moved in. You know, that was a. That's a big thing I noticed. And she was the first partner I'd lived with. I had often stayed with my other partners, but, you know, we had still had independent space. And it was like. It just dropped off a cliff for me in terms of my ability to initiate and lead and create sexual intimacy for us, which had not been a problem, you know, the first year we met and we were dating.

Melanie Curtin: Well, that. Let's. Let's pause there because I think that's important to kind of highlight the contrast. Because what I heard was in the first relationship, there was no problem in the first four months. And in the second, really show the first six months, you know, you were initiating, and it sounds like it was receptive. And so can you paint a little picture of what that phase was like before there was this kind of cliff, I guess you could call it?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I've thought a lot about that. And I think on one level, it relates to a lot of what we've talked about before and something we work with a lot of our clients around, which is polarity and this idea of, you know, creating sexual tension and attraction between the masculine and the feminine. And there's a way that polarity, I think, actually shows up a lot in early relationships because of a couple things. There's a. Just our hormones support it. Right. There's nothing quite like the flood we get when we first meet someone and we open and we're connecting with them and we're having sexual experiences with them, oftentimes, you know, many times a week. And everything's new, everything's novel. There's a lot of just biochemical energy behind that. And something I've, particularly since getting married, come to realize, too, is there's a lot more. It's easy to have a lot more intention at that stage. Meaning right early on, for me, in the case of all those relationships, when we were getting together, it was because we were on dates, we were dating each other. And the purpose of the date was to be in relational presence with each other. That's what we would do when we would get together and be with each other. It was to be with each other. There's something that's exciting about the early form of dating with the two girlfriends. As we started spending a lot more time with each other. There's like more of a fuzziness. Sometimes I'm working, sometimes she's working. Sometimes we're just lazing around, watching tv, sometimes we're just hanging out in friends. It's not quite the same charged space that often early relationships. Relationships have where we're getting together to be with each other. Right. Which I think in itself oftentimes can mean sex where, you know, getting together to hang out, to be with each other and to have sex.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Even when you're. Because at the very beginning, there's also the anticipation of, are we gonna. Are we not gonna. There's a lot of. There's more uncertainty. And uncertainty almost always leads to polarity because those hormones, like you say, get kicked up of, how do I look? Does he like me? Does she think I'm worthy? You know, it's like there's a lot of energy in uncertainty and attraction. And before you're committed, there's also the question of, where's this going? What's going to happen? And there's. There's a lot of energy there. There's a lot of energy in anticipation and the questioning. It can also be exhausting. Obviously, it's not always fun, but there does tend to be a lot of energy. And where there's a lot of energy, there tends to be a lot of potential for attraction. Right. The sparks are often around uncertainty. And that's, I think, a part of why when there's conflict, there's also a lot of. There can be a lot of sparks, which is partly why makeup sex is so hot. Because there's just a lot of energy in the uncertainty or the anticipation around the buildup of tension. Even if that tension isn't good tension, there's just a lot of energy there. And that, you know, that stage, like you, you said with all of those, those new feelings. In the poly world, there's a term for it called new relationship energy, which is shorthand is nre. So people that are in long term poly relationships will watch their partner go through NRE and kind of smile to themselves. Oh, I remember that phase. Or it's a. It's a known thing that happens, right. NRE is a phase. It doesn't last forever. And I think people can also sometimes, we'll call it limerence, which is basically that crush phase, right. Of like, oh, I have a crush, what's going to happen? And the intentionality you just said reminded me of the ritual of going on a date. The ritual of, you know, I'm going to shave my legs or I'm going to wear a certain cologne. I'm going to a certain way. I'm going to, you know, there's. There's intentionality, not just on the date, but before the date. There's a lot of. Again, there's a lot of energy there of I'm preparing my body, right. I'm preparing myself to see this person that I like. And so there's energy there. And that is not the same as we've been hanging out at the house all day. Hey, do you think we should get takeout tonight? Sure. Right. One person's on their laptop. You're in the same clothes. There's not that we are going to a place to be together. You know, it's like, even if it's like, come over. I'll cook for you as a date, it's still. You're still deciding what you're going to wear. You know, there's a lot of energy there around the ritual of it. So I like what you said of noticing the difference between the intentionality piece versus not. When you said it started to get fuzzy in your relationships, when it started to get more serious and you started to get closer and you started to get more committed, there was. There was a piece there that happened of that intentionality might have declined.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's two key components. You've underlined intentionality and energy. So at first, there's a lot of energy, a lot of novelty. There's a lot of newness, right? Have we had sex like this? Have we had sex there? Have we, you know, this time of day, that time of day, there's all of that to discover with each other. And then there's the intention behind it of like, well, we're not together yet. I don't know where this is going to go. So, you know, really putting in the effort to create special experiences for her and be really present for her and her. Her for me and whatnot. And then that starts, you know, for me, that would shift as we kind of got into a more committed place, and in some ways, things would relax. And that's, for me, actually where I noticed. So this moment of the shift of. Away from it just being kind of easy, fluid, natural. As we kind of got committed, my kind of normal attachment baggage came up. That's. That's what I, you know, in retrospect, I can see now is it's like as we, like, got into an actual, real relationship together, and there was emotionality, emotional connection and like, you know, a future emerging. Then that's when Kind of like my. Everything I learned about relationship from my family started. Started showing up, which in the family I was raised in was just two people kind of hanging out in the same house. That was basically it. Like, no ritual, no dates, no polarity, no energy. And that is a muscle that lives in me, that my body, if I'm not vigilant, wants to default back to. Something I've come to really, really realize throughout. Throughout my marriage. And, you know, early after we got married, like, you know, it got to a point where my wife was frustrated. She's like, where's our sex life? Like, I miss you coming towards me. And that was, like, hard feedback for me to hear. But she wasn't wrong. You know, she just wasn't. Wasn't wrong. And I think that's a place that, for me, it was kind of. It. As we got more intimate and connected and secure with each other, you know, this is the paradox of relationship. As we got more secure, more of the insecurities come up in a weird way. There's not, like the. All that energy and intention that can kind of blast through them in early relationships. So, you know, for me, there was an experience of like, oh, you know, my sexuality is actually too much. Because I did have some experiences where the energy I was bringing towards the sex wasn't quite where she was at. And then. So part of me would shut down after I would, you know, she would kind of shut down a little bit. And then I started to internalize that, and then it kind of ate in on itself, so to speak. And then there was like, well, I don't want to initiate that. And, you know, there's a. One way I can sum this up in terms of that. What I said about, like, the muscle I'm aware of and my body default. Wants to default to is actually a type of relational laziness where it's like, I don't want to put in the time to connect and, like, really be present and be curious and kind of nurturing my partner and slowly building up that energy and flirting like you would do on a date. You know, it's pretty rare we just get together and have sex right away sometimes. But initially it was more like after the date, right? Which is actually after the connection. And that. Yet then I would want to have. The times I would initiate it kind of be like we've been disconnected all day, and then I kind of roll over and touch her in bed, and then she's just not feeling it, and then I feel hurt. And then that was Kind of our cycle. And so becoming aware of there's a way I can get relationally lazy. Right. And I'm not actually putting in the time to warm up my partner, my wife's nervous system to act. And when she's warm, she loves it. Right. She's like all about it. When I've kind of taken the time to create an experience or taken the time to get connected, but without that, it's, it's like this way that I think I've definitely seen in some of our guys of like, it's like the zero to 60 thing of like, well, I haven't been putting in the time, but I want sex now. And that can often be hard for a lot of feminine partners when there's just not that build up.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. This is also reflected in my sex research that I've done where many, many women who have sex with men mentioned the attention, wanting the attention. And I was actually surprised as one of the results that surprised me was when I asked women about the men who were best in bed. And sometimes it was the woman's husband, sometimes it wasn't. It didn't, that wasn't the question. It was just the men who were best in bed. One thing that they mentioned over and over that I hadn't even anticipated was the men who were best in bed, they flirted with me before we were in the bedroom. Right. They me or they dropped hints or they, they put attention on me during the day like before we got together. Even if that was a long term partner, they weren't distinguishing. It wasn't only short term partners, but it was exactly what you're talking about, which is sort of focused attention, which I think is really catnip to the feminine. Right. Focused attention and presence with us. I find that very attractive. And I think based on the research many women do is there's something really electrifying about that, about that full presence and attention and getting that sort of sense of spotlight shown on us. And again, I think on a date you've set a time and place, right? Set and setting are there and you, you know, as a present man are showing up, putting attention on her. So there, yeah, there is a warm up kind of phase if it's going well. Right. And I think in a, in a committed relationship, one hopes it's, it's, it is going well. Like the, the two partners are committed because you've done enough of that and it's worked a lot of the time that she has felt open by the time it gets to sex. Versus the relational laziness that you're describing, I think really showed up in the research in terms of feeling like, every time he touches me, he only wants sex, which is not true. Like, that's not. It's not really true. But what she's expressing is I don't feel affection from him. It. Like, I don't feel affection from him. I don't feel kind of taken care of in that way. Now I'm wondering, you know, in your experience that. That sort of shift from that, you know, the cliff right of from one moment to the next. Did. Did the other partners also say something to you? Did the other partners say, hey, where'd you go? I miss you approaching me. I miss you pursuing me for sex. Like, was there a conversation there, or did they act passive aggressive about it? You know, what happened on their side in those situations?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it was a little different with those two partners because they. I don't think they quite had the ability to communicate it in the way my current wife does, who's like, very tuned into herself and kind of noticing that it was more just like the energy kind of disappeared. And I could tell they wanted, you know, in a way, more than the sex. They wanted the presence and connection and curiosity and energy. Right. The sunshine. Hey, I'm here with you. Peace. And so, you know, in they never really presence that. But, you know, I feeling back, I could tell there was like a flatness that we would hit kind of in the relationship where they would kind of start disconnecting and, you know, wonder if I was still interested and whatnot. So that. That's what was part of. Partly so different about, you know, my experience with my current wife is she was able to name it and, you know, had had experiences in a previous marriage that she was afraid would happen again. So for her, she was extra sensitive to it. And that makes a lot of sense because I think with a lot of this stuff, we are sometimes bringing a lot of our baggage. Right. A lot of our attachment and a lot of our previous relationship stuff into the situation in that, you know, while I definitely had, like, for me, the types of. Yeah, there's a piece I want to speak about that, like, the first kind of rejection energy I would get was more in the type of sex we were having. So even when I would initiate, there were times where I just hadn't put in the right connection to open her for the type of experience I was wanting to have. Whereas there's definitely a lot of guys we've worked with that have a Particular kind of actual PTSD from chronic rejection from their partners and chronic shaming of their sexuality or their need. They're literally just their need, which might.

Melanie Curtin: Which might sound like, all you want is sex. You just want sex all the time. There must be something wrong with you. I don't know why you want sex all the time.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Is that. Am I close?

Jason Lange: That's. That's exactly what we've heard from guys, which even with, you know, the laziness piece I was talking about, like, the relational laziness that I think a lot of guys can, you know, can fall into a trap of. There is this other thing of, like, you know, we all have actual sexual needs in relationship, and it. As we often talk to our guys about, like, it's one of the primary agreements in getting into a monogamous relationship in particular is I'm agreeing not to have sex with other people. I'm agreeing to have my sexual needs met by you.

Melanie Curtin: And so it sounds like your wife didn't say those things. She would not say, God, you just want sex. So exhausting. I don't. Why are you always, like, why do you always need this? Why is this such an obsession? She never said that. What you. What you mentioned was more like, how the approach was or what had happened. And so what did that actually sound like when she gave you that feedback? Like, what did she. Did she say, I'm not really feeling open to this? Or how did that work?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it would often. Yeah, it would just be feedback about the energy I was bringing to it, essentially of like, hey, can we, you know, slow down or make more eye contact or, you know, just get more connected when I hadn't really put that time in ahead of time. And I think what you just shared is important in that I did not get that other thing of, like, why are you so sexual? Or, like, why do you want this so much? And that's partly because I knew that that was a value I want in a partner. And she shares that value of, like, sex is really important in our relationship, and I don't want to be in a relationship where there's no sex. Right. That was something we both kind of shared moving in. And, you know, we still had to work through our stuff, so to speak, on the journey. But that was the clear thing for me going into that and for her, based on some of her previous experiences, which is different from what some of our guys get of, you know, sex is just. Just for special occasions or when we're having kids or becomes just less important. Over time, particularly. Yeah. When kids come into play or whatnot. And I just. We've had a lot of guys who are honestly just, like, fried. Like, the amount of rejection they've gotten from a partner just kind of shut something down in them. And then they wonder, well, like, is there, you know, something wrong with me for wanting sex? And then you and I are often like, no, not at all.

Melanie Curtin: Nothing wrong with you. That's a healthy part of you. That's your life force.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And so depending on your partner, you know, that can become hard, and that can actually be, you know, a deal breaker in some short sorts. That's like a real. Hey, we need to have a serious talk about what we're doing here. Because, you know, when sexual needs aren't being fulfilled, it's. It puts a lot of men in a tough bind because it's like, oh, do I just pretend I don't have this? Or do I turn to porn? Massages, like, the affairs, the other outlets to get that met, which then harms the relationship. And then the partner may be mad about that, but there's like a. Well, and I'm not getting this core need met, you know, this. This thing. So it puts a lot of men in a pretty tough bind. And, you know, that's one of the frank conversations we have to have. Guys is like, no, that's a need. And you're allowed to want that and, like, in some sense demand that in a relationship. And doesn't mean she has to be an immediate yes to it, but, like, okay, what would we need to bring in our relationship to even get back to a space where we could connect in that way? Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And I really like what you said about how you and Violet shared that as a value in the relationship. And I know, you know, I'm thinking of one of my women friends who. It was a bit of a bait and switch, actually. And she freely admitted that it wasn't. It wasn't an intentional or conscious bait and switch. But she definitely, you know, had sex with the man she married before. Before they got married, and enjoyed it up to a point. But she said most of what she enjoyed was that he was enjoying it. She didn't really enjoy it in the same way. And then after they got married, it dropped off drastically. And I think there was a lot of sexual frustration on his part. And I sort of kept checking in over the years of like, hey, how's your marriage going? Because I was really puzzled as to how that could possibly be sustainable. I didn't really understand how that worked, it seemed to work for them. And then they got divorced. And that was a big part of why he said, I just have to have this in my life. And I don't, I don't think this is as important to you as it is to me. And so that fundamental. Do you share sex as a value? I think is an interesting way of putting it, which both you and Violet put a premium on of. This is an important and healthy and meaningful part of relationship. And we're in this. This is part of our relationship. This is never going to be relegated to the sidelines. This is going to be a part of our relationship, a flower that we both nurture. And that fundamental agreement is actually really critical. And I think you and I, a lot of our clients we see, need to get to a point with their partner where they say, is this, Are you in this with me? This needs to be part of our world or I can't have this relationship. And some women say yes and want to play the game and get involved, and some don't. They say, I don't, I don't care about this as much as you do. I just don't want to. You know, sometimes it's dealing with trauma. I don't really want to go there. I don't really want to look at this really tough thing from my past that is obviously at play here. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do the work. And that, yeah, that's a, that's a deal breaker. That's a moment, right? That's part of the value of working with mentors or working with anyone that has a broader scope. Right. That's seen a lot of relationships or that's worked with a lot of people, whether that's a therapist or a coach or a mentor, whoever, that person can help with that decision making process. Let me make sure that I left it all on the court, that I tried everything I try before I leave this relationship, especially when there are children involved. And we've seen multiple guys go through that process, some of whom stayed and some of whom didn't, and all of whom were happier once they got through that. That part, because that just sitting in that stew of, like you said, being between a rock and a hard place, of I don't want to be unfaithful to my wife and I need sex. How the fuck do I navigate that? You know, that's a really hard place to be. And yeah, it's, I think, one of the, one of the hardest, actually. One of the hardest because like you said, the particularly marriage vows, but any long term, committed monogamous relationship you've made agreements around, this part of my life is only with you. And so there. So like you said, there's a bind there.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. And you know, we. I've even had guys who, you know, it's pretty heartbreaking that their wife's like, well, you know, I don't want that, so go ahead and get those needs met elsewhere. And you would think that's every guy's fantasy. And some guys, sure, but a lot of men, it's not. They don't want to just have a thing on the side. They want to be emotionally connected to the person they love and having sex with them. And that's almost like an even just. It's almost like an even bigger twist of the knife of like, just, just go get your, you know, just go get that done somewhere else. And that I've seen guys really struggle in that position. And there's a piece I just want to speak to in this that I think possibly underlines this in that there's just, I think what emerges, or at least what emerged from me is there's a real vulnerability in it actually being a need. Right. Like once the kind of excitement and the dating and all that initial fun stuff, there's like, I actually need this in, you know, I often. And we often speak in generalizations and so I'm going to do that here. So this doesn't apply to everyone, obviously, but in a lot of ways, women are just generally more sensual than men, meaning they can get their sensual needs met through a lot of different avenues, of which sex is one great one, but not the only one. Right. They're oftentimes just more connected to their body, more nourishing their body, getting massages, pampering themselves. Right. Like actually getting that tank full. I think for a lot of men that's not the case. By default, we're not so good at accessing our sensuality outside of our sexuality and nourishing ourselves in that way. So it kind of puts a lot of pressure on that, like this is an actual need. And for, you know, not all men, but a lot of men, you know, sexual drive shows up as like an attention in the body, like an actual tension that when we can't express or move, is actually quite uncomfortable if you don't know how to work with it. You know, there's ways we teach men to work with that, to give yourself space and be able to channel that energy. But if you don't have that. It's like my body's constricting, and the one outlet I have isn't available to me, and I actually need this, and I feel stuck. And there's, like, a big vulnerability then in, like, asking for, like, hey, like, I. I need to have sex. Like, otherwise I'm going to kind of go crazy. Right. And I think it's that vulnerability that in particular, you know, was challenging for me and definitely for some of our men.

Melanie Curtin: Well, I'm glad you brought up that word, because it feels like that's so tied to that moment of the cliff. Right. With your partners where you've gotten together, you're committed, you're comfortable, you're intimate, meaning there's emotional intimacy. You share a lot. Maybe you're, you know, in the case of your earlier relationships, maybe you're not living together yet, but you kind of are, right? You're over there all the time. You have stuff there. Right. That relationship phase of we are a couple and the vulnerability of sexually approaching in that circumstance is like, hey, we brushed our teeth, right? We're in bed. Like, can you describe a little bit? Does that feel like that was part of your hesitation or your. Yeah, your. Your issue with that kind of approach later on in the relationship? And how did you overcome that if you did? I don't know if you did in the first two, but you definitely did in your marriage.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it did often fall down to, you know, without the intentionality to dating, particularly when we lived with each other. And my wife and I both work from home, so there's, you know, boundaries around work or something we really have to work around work with, like, when am I on? When am I off? And there's a way we could both easily work into the night and not be connecting through the day and both be really busy. And then it's like, there's that short window at the end of the night after brushing teeth where, oh, this would be the time to have sex. But like I said, I haven't really been filling the bucket, so to speak, on our relationship. And so then it would just kind of feel awkward or I would feel. In some ways, the way my nervous system works is I go hypo. So as I'm undernourished, it's even harder for me to ask for what I need. So there's a way it sucks in on itself. So I wouldn't even have the energy to move through the vulnerability to ask for what I needed. Just be like, ah, it's just like, right. And we were just kind of fall asleep. And that would be a common, common pattern. And in terms of, you know, I didn't necessarily move through that. In the first two relationships, the first one ended, and then the second one was more, you know, we would just kind of fall into that place where I would sometimes just reach over and touch her, and that would kind of be it. But it wasn't. Is she wasn't really getting what she needed at a heart level, and I wasn't fully in my power in terms of really creating that experience in a nourishing way for both of us. And with my marriage, you know, it's still something I have to work on. Sometimes I'm really good at it, and it's vital. Other times I'm stressed and it kind of goes away. And that's the, you know, piece I have to. I've had to take responsibility for. And, like, actually track is like, you know, when's the last time I touched my partner? Not sexually, just, like, when's the last time I touched my partner? And it's pretty shocking to me how easy it is to go and kind of get into my little world and play out the karma of my parents and not do that. So I have to just be vigilant. And part of what helps is we do create an intentional space at least once a week now for practice or date night of we're going to be with each other. It's not about devices, and it's not about things. And there's still the discipline and even holding that structure because sometimes we're both tired and it's just easier to do something else. But there's a commitment to that that we both share that does often tend to lead to just more vital connection, which then always, you know, tends to lead to more vital sex.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm curious, too, because I think it was really brave of Violet to bring up, hey, I miss you coming towards me. I really want a healthy sex life. Like, I miss being feeling pursued or wanted or I really want that here. It was pretty brave of her to share that with you. And how did that conversation go? And what did you. You know, how did it. Did that change things? Was it. Did it sort of wake you up to, oh, this is the thing I need to pay attention to? Like, how did that actual exchange change things?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, it definitely woke me up a little bit in terms of, you know, autopilot's not going to work here. And, wow, she really wants this, too. And so there was, like, a You know, often our dynamic is when she, you know, reveals the pain she's in or the heart she's in, it's easier for me to come more present and reconnect and like, oh, okay, yeah, you're right. No, totally. Boom, here I am. And so there was a bit of that for sure. But I'd also say, you know, part of what really made me realize it was some deeper attachment stuff is even knowing that it would still show up in my nervous system. It would still be a challenge. Even though we've had the discussion and the desire is there and the permission is there, there's still a natural impulse. And that was probably the most eye opening thing to me, that even after the discussion, this is really something I have to be committed to working on and bringing energy and attention to in our relationship. In that, truth be told, I kind of probably always will. It's just part of my, you know, my wiring as a human being.

Melanie Curtin: And can you speak a little bit like, let's say, you know, you can hear that she's showering and you're like, oh, it'd be really hot. Shower with her. Like you're feeling the desire. I guess I'm curious. Was it like you would feel the desire and then thoughts would come in? Well, what if she doesn't want to? Maybe she'll feel obligated if I go in there, like, what is the. Is it you do feel the desire and then there's a part of you that's talking yourself out of it? Or what does that actually feel like? That moment?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's either a dampening of like, oh, it's not the right time, or we don't have time, or just excuses that come up probably more than anything else. Or. Yeah, it's. It's. I'm trying to exactly name what that would be for me. Um, you know, there's like a second layer I can definitely notice of sometimes noticing that come up and doing a temperature check and being like. And I haven't put in the time. There's like. And then that almost creates like a little bit of shame. And then the system kind of freezes for me of like, I haven't been very present for her. I haven't really been connecting with her. And I think that's probably my biggest speed bump versus, like, when I know I've kind of put some energy in. Like, it's just so much easier later on to act on that. And, you know, it's something I'm definitely getting better at overall. Like, the Trend has certainly been in the right direction of just. Which sometimes includes, like, coming in and like, hey, I'm really horny. Let's have sex. You know, sometimes it is that basic, and she's totally receptive to that. Other times it is like, I got to create an experience for us to drop in with each other and actually just become humans with each other again and not just parents or cohabitors and sometimes co workers.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's. You know what's interesting about the actual space conversation is one thing I noticed when you two got married. Was I really? One thing I admired about your relationship was you regularly went away for a day or two. Like, the two of you took a lot of trips. Not constant, but it was pretty regular. You'd take the dog and you'd go somewhere, and I remember wondering, which I've never asked. You'd be interesting to know. Was that like, you were noticing, hey, we haven't connected in a while. I'm going to take the lead here and get us into a different state space where we can. Where it's special. Right. Because there is something. There's something special about getting out of the house. There is. And so was that part of your sort of. I don't want to call it a strategy, but was that something that you were leading in terms of wanting to create space for the two of you as a couple once you were, you know, married in relationship?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think part of me intuitively knows that's. That's actually easier for me because then the intentionality, the energy, like the novelty kind of all comes back online.

Melanie Curtin: What do you mean that's easier for you? It's easier to initiate on a trip or what?

Jason Lange: Like, yeah, there's a way that that's like, more my natural space than the homebody energy, which does bring up more of, like, my family history and my nervous system. But there's something about just being out on an adventure that in, like, following my, you know, my passion or interest or wanting to create an experience for her that just generates a lot of that naturally, makes it easier to step into that kind of polarized space. But, yeah, totally. You know, our relationship early on was heavy on, like, very intentional festivals and spiritual experiences and different things that, like, did give us a lot of that and that are, again, a shared value for us that we want to, like, have fun and explore the world and, you know, make the most of it. So that. That's always been a thing I love to do, you know, I love to bring to our relationship. And it does just radically change things to just get out of our own environment? Sometimes.

Melanie Curtin: And was that something that you would drive sometimes when you were sort of reflecting on, like, hey, we haven't been connecting a lot, or it's been a while since we had sex. Hey, babe, I'd love to take us away this weekend. Does your schedule accommodate that? Was that something that you kind of drove and she. Because it was even deep into your relationship, that's what I remember was you would go away occasionally for the weekend and it seemed really peaceful.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's just one of those things we really love doing. So oftentimes it would be motivated by, she's just finished a big project or I've just finished a big project, or there's a band or music we want to go to. So, you know, this is where part of what we teach our guys is as a guy, you just got to be tuned into, like, what do you like doing? And then I would notice things like, hey, I want to go see Earth Harp at the sushi joint, like, Thursday. Like, we're going to do a thing, you know, and then that creates a whole beautiful night out that I get to bring her along to. But when I'm not putting in the time to stay connected to the things I care about, it becomes. It does become harder to create those special events and special experiences. And, you know, there's certain places she loves to travel and things we love to do. So oftentimes it'll be feeling into that of like, oh, yeah, cool, Airbnb, where we can bring our dog and she can run around and we can just totally unplug. And then it's super fun to, like, go and find some places and then show her some and then kind of create the experience out of that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I think as we start to wrap up here, I'm wondering if there is a man that's sort of in this circumstance that you're describing of. Yeah. You know, I feel like I have been maybe a little bit relationally lazy and I haven't really been putting in the time. And, you know, how does that man kind of get started? Or what are some steps he can take? And then I have a follow up.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think at some point there's just going to be having to have a conversation with your partner around. What are your desires? Here's mine. Where do we fall on that spectrum with each other? Ideally, there's some matchup for, I think, a lot of people and something Violet and I have had to learn about each Other is our startup sequence is different. Right. We want the same destination, but like how we start up is a. Is a little different.

Melanie Curtin: And you're talking about sexually, like sexual.

Jason Lange: Yeah, right. Like. Right. I think, I think you've had people on to talk about the Jaya's sexual. What are they? Sexual archetypes.

Melanie Curtin: Blueprints.

Jason Lange: Blueprints, yeah. Right. Which are blowing up right now and the new Netflix show and everything. But knowing that has been super helpful of kind of what her roadmap is and what road my roadmap is and the intention comes and sometimes creating that experience for her, which will then gets me to my roadmap. Right. It's just. It's just like a different way in that I've had to learn. And so learning that type of stuff about your partner can be really useful. It's like, yeah, what does open you. What does make you feel connected to me? How much sex would you ideally be having a week? You know, having that conversation? If they're open to it. If they're not open to it, you know, and it's pretty gridlocked that maybe you need a couple's therapist or someone to. Sex talks can be, you know, other than money are probably the most challenging talks for a lot of couples that sometimes they need a little support in having in a clean and healthy way. You know, I always, always say this one, but getting connected with other guys to just have some conversations and, you know, it is often an awakening for a lot of men we work with to know that it's not shameful, it is actually okay to need that in relationship. And like, as they start to open to that and hear from other men, it's like, wow, okay, I've really become okay with something that's not okay. And that in itself can start some kind of process around, you know, whether it's a changing relationship or having some tough conversations in that relationship. The last thing I'll say for a lot of. A lot of the guys we tend to work with, and I certainly count myself in this, there's just a piece on our side which is just getting more connected to our desire and noticing it more in our body, not just shooting through it, so to speak, or being busy or disconnecting from it. And a part of that also comes from just like being okay with it, right. Reconnecting to that power and if necessary, doing any work we might have around our sexual shame. That it is not bad, right? There's. It's not bad that you want to have sex, right? And oftentimes men, whether from partners or religions or families, will get messages that it is not a good thing. And so unwiring that just so we can feel clean in that is a big part and we can connect to our desire is also a big part in just feeling comfortable bringing it to our partner.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I love that. It does feel a lot like that. Getting right with that drive, getting right with that power. You know, I'm a big advocate, and I'm constantly telling our men that your. Your sex drive is sacred. It's. It's part of who you are. And it's actually. Yeah, it's your chi, it's your energy, it's your life force. It's your drive, it's your second chakra. Right. It's your. It's your sacred schlong. You know, it's like that energy is part of what's so attractive about men and so desirable about them. And I think, yeah, it's been shamed in so many ways by so many different people and for so long. For some of our guys, I think it can feel like a trap, but we've seen multiple men get out of that trap. You don't have to stay in a limbo. If you're in a limbo, you don't have to stay there. There are options. Before we wrap up, we want to ask you. You know, I think it could be easy to kind of interpret this conversation as it's always on the man to initiate sex in a hetero relationship. And I'm just wondering, can you speak a little bit to. What is the role of a woman? You know, it's. It. Because I think that's. I don't think that's the case. And I could see how that. That could be how it sounds here. So can you touch on that?

Jason Lange: Most men I know love it when their partner initiates. Like it is one of the great joys and pleasures to be, like, seduced, so to speak, and want that more from their partner. And I do think there's a time in place for that. I think what I would say the role is is not that the masculine whoever's holding that in the relationship always has to be the one initiating, but it's almost like we have to be the ones that are. Keep bringing the energy into the space. That's kind of it. Like, it doesn't mean we have to actually physically initiate, but we have to be the ones that let her know she looks cute or, you know, like that just kind of keeps. Keeps that bucket full of some life force. And some energy. And then she'll often step into, initiating through, through from that place. If, like, you know, it's just little flirting, little looks, little touches, I think. But that doesn't mean we have to fully initiate each time. It's just that we have to know, like, we welcome that and we want that. It's. It's the sharing of the desire, I think, is the most important piece that.

Melanie Curtin: Right. I want.

Jason Lange: Yeah. The more we can freely do that with a man is like, I. I want you. You're so hot. I want you. But, like, um, doesn't mean, like, I'm trying to have sex with you right now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: It doesn't always have to be that. It just has to be the expression of, like, I still want you, baby. You're so hot. I love you.

Melanie Curtin: And it could be during the day, you know.

Jason Lange: Yes. And if you're dropping that throughout the.

Melanie Curtin: Day, your ass looks great in those jeans. It doesn't mean we're gonna have sex right now. It's just, wow, shit. Okay. I see you. And that's it. That's just a moment during the day.

Jason Lange: Yes. And then that's the sweet spot. You know what I would say if we're kind of keeping that energy alive, she will initiate more, in my experience, and most women will. Yeah, it's just like the stage is set, so to speak. And oftentimes women won't initiate because they're not feeling connected or desired.

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: That's mostly what it often is.

Melanie Curtin: And so there's also a piece around not feeling empowered. I know. You know, speaking as a woman who has sex with men and, you know, also consumes porn some of the time, most of what I see is a pretty passive role for women. And I do think that that affects my sexuality. And so if I think about initiating, sometimes I feel like, oh, well, what if he doesn't want to? Maybe he's not interested. I think I have a lot of the same thoughts as men. And all of those comments we just talked about. Right. When. When a man has shared with me he thinks I'm attractive. You know, little things here and there, whether we're a couple, like, even in an established relationship, I'm much more likely to go straddle him after dinner if I've. If I've had. I'm like, oh, okay, he is interested. I do. I do know that he likes me still, because I remember a man saying once, he said something like, I don't understand why my partner is insecure. You know, I chose her. I Picked her, I married her, whatever it was that he said. And I said, men lose interest all the time. Men cheat all the time. Just because you're in a committed partnership with a man or a woman, that doesn't mean they're still into you. So she, she, of course she's still insecure because she's like, but do you still want to fuck me? I know you used to want to fuck me, but do you still want to fuck me? There's that insecurity is never going to go away. So when a man is bringing it, like you just said, sharing things he finds attractive about me, I feel much more empowered to initiate because I, I'm already, like you said, the stage is set versus a man who's hanging back, who's more passive, who's, who's, you know, being quieter, who's just sort of not owning his power, right. His sort of physical body's more sort of concave. There's, there's less energy there. It feels, you know, scarier. And also that drive, that passion that like, man, your ass looks great in those jeans, that is attract, that in inherently is attractive. The fact that I noticed also his drive, his sexuality itself is a turn on. And so I'm, I'm feeling it. I'm right, there's a, there's a dance there that's happening.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And this reminds me of, you know, one last thing I think I heard that I really like that I want to share here comes from the teacher of my teacher. So this is David Data, who's created a lot of the known work around polarity that many people in this world swim in. And he said something once on a call I was tuned into of the feminine decides when we're going to have sex, the masculine decides how. And so that only works though when the masculine is keeps bringing that energy towards, of like, oh, I love you, baby, you look so good. I would love to do this to you. I would love for us to have this experience shared from no expectations of when just the desires here, baby. The desires here, baby. This is what I would like to do. And then it's the feminine who decides like, yeah, oh yeah, I'm ready to open right now. Right. But the, the piece that often gets missed then is, you know, the man stops coming towards the feminine and that's the energetic that certainly happened in my relationship and that I've had to work towards, you know, so, and it can be as simple, you know, in my, in my relationship, I'll share it can be as simple as just like, letting her know in the morning, you know, I would. I would love to make love tonight. And then that gives her a whole day to feel into it. And it can be that simple. Right. It doesn't have to be these overtly huge gestures or something. It's just like, yeah, I'd really love to be with you.

Melanie Curtin: That's kind of hot. Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then there's, like. It percolates the whole day, and then it changes the energy.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point about the setting of the stage and bringing that. You know, it's like cultivating. Cultivating a garden. I think I would also add that I do think there is a role for positive reinforcement of. You know, I remember wearing lingerie to bed, which I haven't always done in all my relationships. And there was a big contrast in one relationship. I wore, like, a bra and panty set, and he went crazy. He was like, all about. It felt really nourishing, and I was much more likely to do it again. And then there was one where I was really cold out, and so I wore a lingerie top and sweatpants, and I came over and I was like, do you like my outfit? Because I was kind of nervous about it. He was like, yeah, yeah. But he kept watching tv, and I felt really kind of dropped in that moment of like, oh, I guess that's not exciting to you. And so, of course, I was less likely to do it. So I do think there's a role for.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Positive reinforcement and even honestly letting her know. I think it's really hot when you. When you. I think it's really hot when you just straddle me on the couch, you know, just feeling it. Like, I do think letting her know and inviting that out of her is. I do think there's a role for that, because I would certainly feel more empowered and invited if it was like, I knew my partner liked it, because, like I said, and I'm not the only woman. I know some of my women friends feel this way too, of, well, what if I initiate and he. He's not interested, but he feels like he's a black. Like, he's obligated to have sex with me just because I've initiated. Sometimes I worry, oh, he'll only be doing it. He'll have sex with me, but it'll only be because he's obligated. Whereas if he's told me I find that exciting, it's great. I will feel more like I'll get over that speed bump of, what if he's just doing it because he thinks he should.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. I think that's a great, great place to end in terms of. Again, it's kind of creating the stage. Okay. I love it when this. When this happens. I love. I'm sharing the desire of what I love. And that often is what, you know, what we talk about in our training ignites the system and the masculine shares his desire. The whole space gets energized. But if we're not sharing our desire, it's pretty unlikely, right, that it's going to work. Because for a lot of women. Yeah. If we're not sharing our desire, does he still like me? Do I look fat? Like, what's. Like, all that kind of stuff kicks in of has his attention gone elsewhere? Is he about to break up with me? Like, it can be all kinds of different stuff that we can interpret, but when we're just constantly watering that garden, so to speak, things just work better.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And it is a relationship. It is a dance. There are two people involved. It's not all on you as the man. You know, there's two willing participants. And I think that example you gave of Violet sharing with you from the heart of, I give a shit about this relationship. So I'm telling you, I miss you. I miss your cock. I miss you. Coming towards me is a gift of her revealing her heart. Not in a shaming way, not in a. You piece of shit. Why aren't you doing this? But genuinely revealing. And then you meeting that. Right. There's a dance there. And that, to me, is healthy relationship. If you constantly feel like you're banging your head against the wall, that's not a healthy relationship. So, yeah, before we wrap, Jason did mention our training. We have a free training. If you're interested in going deeper than the podcast, you can find that at Evolutionary men slash training. Again, that's evolutionary men slash training. So if you've been looking for something else to kind of help you immerse yourself in this kind of topic, I would recommend that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, we'd love to support you.