154: Can I have female friends when in a relationship? | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: So I think that it's actually, you know, having. Having women friends or having male friends, if you're, if you're a woman is a good example of a place that in order to do it well, you do actually have to be talking, you know, and you do have to have some kind of mature conversations about what are our agreements, what makes you feel safe and has me feel free. Hey, welcome back to another episode. This one, we are talking about women friends, also known as female friends, and how to be in integrity in having women friends when you're in a relationship, whether that's married or in a monogamous relationship of any kind. Welcome back to the podcast, Jason. Thank you for being here. And yeah, I guess I would just love to start out the discussion with your own experience in terms of having women friends in relationship. How has that been for you and have you ever had any problems with it?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I think it's a question a lot of men we work with are concerned about and have on their minds wanting to create thriving relationships and wanting to be an integrity in them. So, like, hey, how do I navigate this as I do get into a relationship, and for me, I've always had female friends in relationships. Depending on my different partners, exactly the extent of that changes. I mean, I will name for one I, you know, my, my disposition is I do just tend to hang out with men a lot. You know, as being a guy in men's groups, that's kind of just what my nervous system is, is used to and has grown up with. So I've never been a guy who particularly, like, put a lot of energy into cultivating female friendships. They were always kind of just more present in my circle or spheres or groups or whatnot. But, yeah, I think the most important thing that I would start with here, even having just said that in my personal story, is it's very specific, like, what's going to work in a relationship, I think depending on the types of agreements and container and history with your partner as well. Right. So we probably all know a woman who's been cheated on. Right. And that can be deeply triggering for some women and create certain traumas and trust issues that can then play out of like, well, why are you hanging out with her? What are you guys talking about? That, that it's just going to be really important to know your partner's history. And I think the most important thing here is just to have explicit conversations about, like, hey, what are we comfortable with and what are our agreements? You know, the other thing I would say Is it kind of depends on who you know, even in my relationship, like who I'm hanging out with. If it's a friend like you, like, there's just no problem, right? There's no issue. My wife knows you. We know the context of each other. If it, if I was like, hey, my ex girlfriend's coming into town and I'm going to go out and have dinner with her, that would probably be an issue in my relationship. Like, I would need to have a really clear talk with my partner and we'd have to get on the same page as to like, why I'm going, what I hope to get out of that and what the purpose of that even is. And without that is where I think a lot of trouble could, could happen. Because then it's like, well, what's going on here? Why are you seeing someone you know you used to be in a relationship with?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I, I was going to bring this up as well, because a couple of men have mentioned the following scenario to me. They're out at a party or some kind of gathering. They see someone that they used to date and have a quick conversation with her. Their partner notices and it's like, who's that? And they're like, oh, that's a work colleague. Former work colleague.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: Pro tip, don't do that. If you've seen someone, if you've dated a woman, that's someone that I went on a few dates with and we used to work together. So don't bury the lead. Don't avoid the fact that you were romantic. Be honest about it right away. And. Because the thing is that I feel like this is a classic scenario of, well, I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, you know. Well, I was, I was concerned it would be a problem, so I didn't say anything. But you not saying anything is the problem.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: Totally shady. When it's not shady. And I think that's really what the nuance is in this conversation is. Where's the line between my woman being concerned and my woman being controlling? Where's the line between me not being allowed, quote unquote, allowed to have women friends versus wanting to make my partner feel safe? Because there is a difference there. And we, we sort of keep coming back to this. But there, there is a difference between out of control jealousy that is that the root of which is unprocessed trauma that a person, let's say, your woman has not dealt with, that's being played out in your relationship. There's a difference between that and. And healthy relating. And you, when you are straightforward and honest, you have a much better shot at evaluating what's actually happening with your partner. When you're shady about it, you might trigger a healthy. Even a healthy partner is gonna be like, what the fuck? Like, later down the line, I found out that you went out. That's fucking weird. Why did. Like, why wouldn't you tell me? And even when that motivation is innocent, you know, and when I say the word innocent, part of what I'm getting at is I think that there are. There are men who are in relationships where they're already a little bit scared of their woman's reaction. And so they're unconsciously or consciously trying to avoid something. Right. They are walking on eggshells. They are trying not to trip. Trip the tripwire. That's not a great sign. And. And it's still important to. Yeah. Communicate honestly and. And then see what the reaction is. And I liked what you said, Jason, about being sensitive to someone's history, because it is going to be different for you as a man as well if you've been cheated on. You know, your. Your nervous system is. It's frightened of different things. It's got more landmines in it than someone else's who hasn't been cheated on. Because you. You are sort of now wired to wonder, well, is that all that's there? Like, what are you doing? That kind of thing? And it takes. It can take a long time to unwind from that and really be able to be present with your partner in the relationship you're in now versus afraid that the past is going to repeat itself. So, yeah, I'm wondering if you. Because you've been on a lot of, you know, you've talked to a lot of guys. You supported a lot of guys. We both supported a lot of guys through the program, but you've talked to more men than I have. And I'm just wondering, when this has come up for men, what have been their concerns around having women friends in integrity in a relationship?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say the first is, is the question, like, can I. Is that allowed? Is that normal? Is that weird? Like. And I think the times I hear that question, it tends to be from guys who do have partners that are a little more sensitive to it and some of them even, yeah. More controlling. That there's like, a demonization of that of, like, well, why would you want to hang out with her? And that they really just want to kind of know, like, is that possible? And, yeah, we would I think we would both say yes. Like, it's totally normal. You know, we meet co workers, old friends, college friends, like people who we've just connected with or met over similar interests over the years. And I think it's very normal to create those types of relationships. And you know, we tend to work with guys who are, who are very concerned about their partner's well being. Sometimes too much so in wanting to protect them or not wanting to make them uncomfortable and can start to compromise on certain things like that. Right. Like not going out with friends or not being able to talk to a co worker or someone like that. And I think that that starts to get more into red flag territory and is something that it's good to be aware of, you know, if you're a guy in relationship. And as you start to feel into that, the other piece of that I'd say is like, yeah, just how, how good is our communication around this? Yeah, like. And you know, we often talk about the power of languaging on the show and owning our experience. And like, yeah, is it like you can't do this or you're so this. Or is it more like, hey, I noticed I'm a little nervous that you're going out with this friend and you know, part of me is like, are you attracted to her? And you know that that's, that's a different way to presence that, you know, that that can potentially lead to a little bit more closeness with a partner versus like, oh my God, you're just going out and you're doing this thing you're having, and it's kind of more that attacky or controlling energy that, you know. The other thing I would say is an important thing to underline here is not all, but some of the guys we work with sometimes are just more comfortable connecting to women because of their histories. Some guys have been bullied, some guys have just never been around really solid men. And so they're used to being around women because, you know, you can actually have conversations about emotions and how you're doing with a lot of women and a lot of guys are deeply craving that. But don't, you know, haven't been in the spaces where they can get that from other men. So they're kind of just, that's kind of the baseline. And then they've developed all these deep relationships with female friends and then suddenly they're dating someone and it's like, oh, well, how does this work now? And that's, that's a real, you know, important moment to kind of Feel into of, you know, and that's where I said it's specific of like, okay, what's right for this relationship and what are the agreements we want to make with me and my partner?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think agreements is a great place to pause on because. Okay, so a couple things I want to touch on. One is, what is the difference between having a woman friend and emotional cheating? Right. Getting really close to someone outside the relationship who is a woman, who you're confiding in, etc. One sign of emotional cheating is that you're talking about your relationship with that woman friend. That's a red flag. That's. That's probably not. That's not good. That's. There's something wrong if that's what's happening. The, you know, emotional intimacy of being close with someone and talking about your life or talking about their life with them, that's much safer. And so that could be an agreement, for example, that we agree as a couple, we can have any friends we want to have because we're grown ass people and we trust each other and we want a healthy relationship where we can connect with human beings on this planet. And we agree that when we're having issues, we talk to each other first. And we don't talk to friends about our stuff, or especially we don't talk to opposite sex friends. That can be something that you can. So you can make any kind of agreement that you want with interactive relationship. When Jason's talking about agreements, that's what it is. And another agreement could be, you know, I always want to know if you've dated someone, if we're out at a gathering or, you know, there's someone like, I just want to know, you know, to have it on my radar. It would help me feel safe. That can be an agreement that you have if you, you know, if you have that agreement and then your, your partner has an extreme reaction and it becomes a huge issue and you have a huge fight and you keep having the same fight about something like this. That's a red flag. So there's a balance between having agreements and having boundaries. Basically having boundaries and being able to have a healthy relationship. And what I liked about the example that you gave Jason, which is you wanting to have dinner with an ex girlfriend. I think that the exes thing is a really great example of what is the, what is the point of that, right? Like, what are you hoping to get out of that dinner? Because most of us still have some kind of chemistry with exes. Not all of us, and not all the time. But particularly relationships from our past when we weren't as conscious, there's still that sort of, like, unconscious patterning of, like, oh, there's. There's something here. And I know some couples where the option has been, okay, well, I'll. I'll come. You know, like, the three of us will go out to dinner, and then I can get to know her. You know, if you think she's really worthwhile, which, you know, a lot of times, if you want to go to dinner, it's like, there's something that's interesting about this person. You have a history, you know, you want to know where they are in their life. It's okay to be friends with people that you've been with. It's just including the partner so that there's not that feeling of exclusion, you know? And I think that's a really good option for some couples that really works. And it's sort of. You know, I think a lot of it. What you were saying does come down to the vulnerability of saying, like, oh, I'm noticing kind of nervous, or, like, I'm a little scared of that connection. And I'm remembering a woman friend of mine who had. Who was dating a partner who was older than her by about 12 years, and his ex had come into town, and he wanted to. He wanted to have her stay with them or something. Like, she was gonna stay on the couch. And my friend was like, I don't feel great about this. Like, I feel a little scared. Like, that doesn't. It just feels like too much. And eventually they. They pared it down like, okay, she'll stay somewhere else, and we'll all have dinner or we'll. We'll all do something. And that felt a lot safer to my friend. And that's a good example of, you know, both parties being in touch with, like, how do I actually feel about this? Right? How safe do I feel in my body with this happening? And that's sort of comes back to what we were saying of. For different people, they're going to feel a different level of safety. And I also wanted to kind of highlight what you said about a lot of our men. And a lot of my guy friends are the opposite of you, Jason, where they. They feel more comfortable around women. They feel like they can connect to women better. They feel like women. It's easier to have deeper conversations. And, yeah, I think it's true that a lot of those men have also had bad experiences with boys. And I say boys because I'm really talking about especially teenagehood. That they. Yeah, that our culture doesn't support healthy male bonding. It doesn't support men having their full humanity and being able to express their feelings and be held in their feelings by other men. So you can see in the research, right around 12 years old, boys start using different language. They start pushing each other away. There's a, there's a need to appear strong in order to appear masculine. And that's, that is toxic masculinity, in my opinion. That is the patriarchy of boys are not allowed to feel. And if you show feelings, you're humiliated. You're really, you're humiliated and ostracized and all of these bad things happen. So those boys turn into men who don't want to get deep with other men because it's scary and they might get hurt and they're not wrong. Sometimes that's true. Sometimes that does happen. So it's been interesting in our community and watching the men that we work with form deeper relationships with other men, it's almost like there's a sense of relief. Like, wow, this really is different. Because there's a way, no matter how close you get to a woman friend, she's never really going to understand what you're going through. If you're a man who has sex with women, there's, you know, there's only, there's only an extent to which she can understand that. Whereas another man understands how hard it is to approach like viscerally in his body. He's like, dude, I get it. Like, you did great. You did the best you could. Like, there's just no way. It's the same for me with, with my women friends. There are things that they just get that my, my male friends will not, will not understand because we're having this human experience in these particular bodies on this planet. And that's just kind of what's so. So I really feel for that experience and just definitely wanted to highlight it because I would imagine if I were a man who had a lot of women friends, it would feel scary getting into a relationship and wondering, you know, is this a part of my life I'm going to have to give up? Because it's a big part of my life. These are the closest people in my life. These are my, this is my peer network. And I'm wondering, you know, if you were that man, would you bring that up with your new dating partner? Like, how would you communicate about that? Or would you, would you wait and see what happened? Like, how would, how would you navigate that in a relationship.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I definitely think, you know, be best. Like we work with our guys on a lot to get explicit and like name it and go into that conversation doesn't mean you have to like solve it one conversation. But just, hey, you know, most of my friends are women and I tend to connect to women better. And I'm also noticing our connection is deepening and I'm really enjoying it with you and I just want to like check in with, you know, what do you feel comfortable with? You know, here's what I'd love. I'd love to still be able to spend some time with my female friends. And, and I also want to make sure you feel safe, you know, so like, maybe we can create some agreements or, you know, do you have any history, you know, that's, that's where just getting to know your partner and their histories is going to be really important. Because some, some women, you know, who, if they've never been cheated on, maybe they have a secure attachment style just to be like, yeah, it's all good, like no thing. Right. It's just not even part of the calculus. But someone else who maybe has a history of cheating in their background or has a more anxious attachment style, you're going to need to talk about what level is good? Is texting once a day okay, or going out once a month? What's the line there where it starts to feel a little uncomfortable? And you may actually have to discover that there might be a little iteration there and it may change as the relationship deepens as well. I would just dive into that conversation earlier. And the great news about leading that conversation as well is you're also going to get clarity about what you're comfortable with because she probably has guy friends, right? And you know, what are you comfortable with? Are you comfortable with her talking to a bunch of other guys or going out to dinner or seeing old flames? Like it's a two way street, right? And I think that's an important thing to feel into is, you know, okay, whatever. I'm okay with whatever I'm asking for. Am I okay with my partner doing the same thing? Right? If she's like, yeah, it's Friday night, I'm going out to go grab drinks with Jim, you may be totally fine with that. Maybe you've met him, maybe you have some shared relationship with him or you may be like, oh, that feels a little weird. Like, you know, why is she doing that on a Friday night as opposed to some other day? So those are just things to examine with each other and have that conversation, you know, as your intimacy unfolds.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think it's a good example, too, of, you know, there. I think there are some really smart lessons to be taken from the poly community and from agreements and communication style within the poly community. If you've never read the Ethical Slut, I think it's a great book. Very practical in terms of agreements and how we do. How we do polyamory. And even if you're not doing poly, I think there's a lot of, you know, like, boundaries can be fluid and they can change. And so it's not a rigid, fixed thing, but it's, what are our agreements now? And then a conversation can be, I think we need to shift our agreements rather than, I'm pissed at you that I got triggered because you did the thing we agreed to. Right Then that's sort of, again, coming back to the red flag of if your partner is. Is screaming at you for doing something that you had agreed to, that's a red flag rather than, oof, I know that we agreed to this, and I'm feeling really raw about it. Can we talk about it? That's a different conversation. So pay attention to how your woman is communicating and what's coming up, you know, as that's happening, because this is. Yeah, this is another sort of litmus test of can my partner share. Share her heart with me in a way that feels safe rather than really triggered and full of rage? And, you know, that. That sense of agreement, you know, I know from. From a lot of my friends that are in the poly community, meeting other partners is really helpful. So, like I said, you know, hey, my friend's having a show. I'd love for you to come with me. Right? Bringing. Connecting people so that they know the name, the face, the vibe, the. You know, it really, really helps. So if you do have really close friends and you are. And you're wanting to introduce your partner can say, this person's really important to me. I'd love for you to meet them. Right. I'm bringing you into my world. So it's an inclusion. It's introduced as an inclusionary situation. Can be really smart, especially for the people that you really love. Like, you're really close women friends. Your really close female friends that you're like, I really want this person to stay in my life because there's. There's that tier of friendship, and then there's other tiers that are sort of less important. Like, I don't really. I like being friends with this person. And if my partner's uncomfortable with it, it's not the end of the world. Whereas these two, these two people are very important to me. I want to make sure that these feel safe to everyone involved because these are deep friendships that I really treasure. And you can be really honest with your partner about that. These are deep friendships that I treasure. You know, these people have shown up, these women have shown up for me in really important moments. I would love for you to meet them. Right. So it's introduced as I would love for you to meet them. Like, I would love to bring you into my world instead of I'm going to coffee, is that cool? If there's a way, you know, you can sort of be proactive about it. I know for me, that would feel really good. I'd be like, oh, I get, I understand where this woman is placed in his world. Like, I understand. I'm like, oh, this is a really important person. This is not just someone he's friends with. I get it. And I feel like, oh, and he wants me to meet her. Like, I feel included and I feel kind of special.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that last one is worth highlighting that it's two ways is way, you know, as well in that I've had that experience of like, yeah, and I want her to meet you. Right. Because you're an important part of my life and this is someone who I've had a deep relationship with and is a good friend. And I'm really excited for her to, you know, get to know you, my new partner, who I'm so excited about. So I do think that's a really, really strong strategy and a good litmus test. Right. For, for, for that, that trust and just ability to co create these agreements and introduce someone into your life and your existing connections.

Melanie Curtin: And out of curiosity, have you ever met a partner's guy friends or have you guys ever had a conversation about that and how did that go?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I've met some of my wife's ex partners, you know, people she dated for a short amount of time and then just kind of. It did change more into friendship because they just weren't compatible. And it's felt totally, totally clean, totally easy. There are people that I meet and I'm like, oh, yeah, I could see why you dated. Like, that's a good person. Right? It just, it wasn't a fit and that was just, you know, we know each other pretty well, so I could. There's just a few, you know, you can feel. There's no, like, I could feel there's no residual stuff there. You know, that might not be true for everyone, but in these instances, totally. I could just feel it's like, clean. There's no. There's no lingering attraction or kind of unresolved stuff there, which is possible in certain relationships.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Yeah, I. I like that phrasing. And I'm. I'm remembering a. When I was. I was dating a man for a couple years, and he had. He was in school and he had a. A school friend. They did a bunch of projects together who was a woman, and I met her pretty early on because he was doing a ton of projects with her. And I really didn't have a problem with it. It felt. It's. You know that word that you mentioned, clean. It felt clean to me. It didn't feel like there's a vibe here or it feels weird. And it never felt like he was hiding meeting up with her or it just felt like, yeah, these are. These are two people doing who. They laughed a lot. What I liked about their relationship was they cracked each other up, and I liked that it brought him joy. It was sort of like, oh, that's a great. Good for you. I didn't have, you know, friends like that when I was in school to that extent. And I think that I felt secure in his attachment to me. Like, I could feel that he really thought I was special. So I think there's also a sense of the bond between the couple. You know, for example, you and your wife have a very secure bond. So what it would take to threaten that would be huge versus folks with a less secure bond. Where things are happening in the relationship, there's hidden resentments, the communication is poor. You know, that bond isn't very secure, then other connections are going to feel scarier because there's not that solidity. And I felt like I had that with that particular man. So I noticed. I was like, oh, I feel like other women would have a problem with this. I remember thinking, I feel like other women would have a problem with this. And I really don't. I really don't think that he feels that way about her and etc. So, yeah, I think that that's a great word that you use, clean. Because it feels like when it. When it gets messy in. In situations like this, it's when your needs are not being met in your primary relationship and you're going outside the relationship to try to get them met. So if you're not experiencing emotional intimacy, you're going outside the relationship for that. If you're not experiencing physical intimacy, you're going outside the relationship for that. Neither of which is okay. In both of those cases, you're choosing not to face what's actually so in your primary relationship because it's too hard or it's too scary or you don't know how to do it. And, and that to me is the betrayal. That to me is the part that's like, no, you needed to do that. You needed to actually confront what was happening instead of doing this sideways thing to try to sort of keep things the same over here, but then get your needs met over there. That's not, that's not okay.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Unless it's some kind of explicit agreement. Right. If you are in some kind of open relationship or something. And that's part of it. But what we're talking about is not that case. And I think this is where you men, as listeners, your part in kind of figuring this out is. Yeah. Doing a little inventory to kind of check in. Like, yeah, what is it I get from this relationship? What am I wanting from this relationship? And you know, we use the word. A lot of people use the word. But the opposite of clean would be leaky. Right. There's something kind of leaky about the connection where either there's some attraction there and you know, I'm getting some self esteem or just enjoying that from knowing this person's attracted to me and would want to date me if I was single or, or, or something like that. And that's where sometimes we can get in trouble. Yeah. Because there's something we're not getting from our current relationship. So we kind of leak the container to try to get it from outside. And that's where, you know, real problems can start to exist for, for one, just being. The truth may be you're not in the right relationship and you're not getting what you need. And instead of dealing with that and actually taking an action to change it, you're kind of just getting these side nutrients which is kind of keeping it going for too long versus acknowledging like, yeah, wow, I'm just, I don't feel emotionally connected to my partner or I'm not attract, you know, we're not having sex. There's no connection here. And I need to do something about that. Right. I need to change the state of this relationship or have a deep conversation for one. That that leaky energy can sometimes be a way to perpetuate that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good point about, you know, not. It can feel really overwhelming and scary to confront the truth, to actually face the truth, which is there's problems in my relationship. I'm not. I'm not connected. I don't feel connected to my partner emotionally or physically. There's such a. There's such a tendency to avoid that and to, like you said, just kind of get a few needs met over here and a few needs met over there because of the. The gigantic fear of being alone. Oh, if I split up with my partner, then I have to confront my aloneness or big things in my life need to shift, such as how I see my children. That's a huge, you know, that's a huge deal. We work with a lot of guys who are married with children. And the idea of confronting the truth about that relationship not working comes with a lot more stakes than people that don't have children because there's just. There's huge ties there. There's also the effect on the kids. There's so many things to consider. And I think that. I do think that's important, though, because that inventory of, you know, why. Why am I in this relationship? Is this relationship working? If you're going outside the relationship to get needs met, something's not working. And if you're going outside the relationship and not talking about it with. With your partner, that's a double. That's a double whammy. Because if. If you're at least in dialogue about, like, hey, there's some things going on, you know, I'd love counseling or whatever it is, and you're. You're communicating about it. There's. There's acknowledgement there that's very different than, you know. Yeah, that, that. That sort of scenario that I'm thinking of, you know, I have. I know of a man whose inner. A marriage with a woman, and she doesn't want him to be friends with anyone else. She only wants him, basically. She only wants him to be with her. And that's very isolating. And it's, you know, a problem for him. There's a way that. That's a really big problem, and that is an example of. That's not. That's not healthy. There's something that's not healthy about that on either side because he's also not setting any boundaries with her. He's accepting her parameters in a way that's not serving him at all. And he's getting increasingly isolated, and it's. It's a problem. So I think that it's actually, you know, having. Having women friends or having male friends. If you're if you're a woman is a good example of a place that in order to do it well, you do actually have to be talking, you know, and you do have to have some kind of mature conversations about what are our agreements, what makes you feel safe and has me feel free. Right. Because there's an and there of I want you to feel safe. And I also want to live my life and I want to be true to myself and my. My friendships, my relationships outside of this one. And that's the. And that I think it can sometimes be missing.

Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's kind of sums it up right there. And I think the ground. Right. The necessary ground for that is safety and trust. And so if you don't have safety and trust with a partner, it's going to be hard to kind of branch out to opposite sex relationships. And if you keep trying to create safety and trust and it doesn't work right. Just no matter what you do, no matter what conversation, it's always. That's a. That becomes a bit of a red flag. Right? Like, oh, okay, there's. It doesn't seem like there's anything I could do to create a deeper level of trust with my partner. She's only comfortable with me being with her. That, that becomes something to examine in the relationship then. Or, you know, get some counseling around or look into, because you do, you do need that. And it's partner possible that, you know, a partner's trauma or history or different things may make that impossible. And then, you know, at least for the time being. And then the question is, well, then, yeah, is this the right relationship for me? Do I want to be in a relationship where I can only connect with my partner and not have some healthy connections beyond that?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that in the ideal scenario where there is safety and trust, you know, these. These friendships become part of a wider community. Right. I've, you know, I've watched you and Violet bring people into your world and your parties have wonderful people and they're all mixing. You know, it's. It's. And I think that again, coming back to the poly community, I think that's a huge strength of. Of the poly community is that there is an inclusion. It feels inclusive in a different way. That I feel like sort of the heteronormative frame feels. It feels much more like we are all friends. We can, we can all be friends. Instead of you're over there with your female friends and I'm over here with my male friends. And it's like, we are friends. And I really like that as a. As the vision. Right. Of this is what's possible. As we evolve in humanity, as we process trauma, as we become conscious, as we actually do our work, there's possibility for more connection and more, you know, hey, this person's gonna, you know, house sit for us while we're away. This person's gonna watch our dog. It's like it becomes a bigger community, and that strengthens the whole web of everything. And I think, again, that, you know, in the. In the poly community, and if you read the Ethical Slut, you know, once partners are integrated and it's sort of like we are all friends, they'll even do childcare. Like, this partner's gonna do childcare while we're away on this trip. Or it becomes almost like a village. In a healthy way. In a healthy way. And I think that's a strength that humanity can aspire to in this regard. And it doesn't always have to be drama and unprocessed trauma. Once we work through our shit, things get better. It can actually be really awesome. So I think that's a good place to wrap. Do you want to say a little bit about where people can find more on us?

Jason Lange: Yeah. If you go to Evolutionary Men slash training, you can watch the very excellent 35 to 40 minute or so guys. Love it. Video training we did that kind of walks through five important shifts that, whether you're single or married, are very applicable to creating a dynamic, thriving, healthy relationship. And that includes some instructions for how to reach out if you're interested in working with us as well, which I would obviously highly recommend. We have an amazing community and every day is just so incredible with the guys we work with.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. We would love for you to check it out. Evolutionary Men training. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.