All right, and welcome back. I was on Melanie Curtin's show Dear Men talking about whether guys can have female friends when they're in a relationship. It's a question I get from a lot of men I work with, especially guys who are really concerned about their partner's well-being and want to do things right.
The short answer is yes, absolutely. I've always had female friends in my relationships. But here's the thing, it's very specific to your relationship. What matters most is having explicit conversations with your partner about what you're both comfortable with. Some women have been cheated on before and that history creates real sensitivities. You need to know your partner's story and be willing to talk openly about boundaries and agreements.
We also talked about the "leaky" versus "clean" dynamic. If there's unresolved attraction or you're getting emotional needs met outside your relationship that should be met inside it, that's when things get problematic. The question to ask yourself is, what am I actually getting from this friendship? Am I avoiding dealing with something missing in my primary relationship?
I mentioned how it's a two-way street. Whatever you're asking for, you need to be comfortable with your partner doing the same. If she wants to grab drinks with a guy friend on Friday night, can you handle that? That conversation is going to reveal a lot about where you both stand.
The ground for all of this is safety and trust. If you can't create that with your partner no matter what you do, that becomes something to examine. Maybe it's time to get some help, whether that's couples counseling or deeper work on your own patterns.
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Melanie Curtin: So I think that it's actually, you know, having. Having women friends or having male friends, if you're, if you're a woman is a good example of a place that in order to do it well, you do actually have to be talking, you know, and you do have to have some kind of mature conversations about what are our agreements, what makes you feel safe and has me feel free. Hey, welcome back to another episode. This one, we are talking about women friends, also known as female friends, and how to be in integrity in having women friends when you're in a relationship, whether that's married or in a monogamous relationship of any kind. Welcome back to the podcast, Jason. Thank you for being here. And yeah, I guess I would just love to start out the discussion with your own experience in terms of having women friends in relationship. How has that been for you and have you ever had any problems with it?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I, I was going to bring this up as well, because a couple of men have mentioned the following scenario to me. They're out at a party or some kind of gathering. They see someone that they used to date and have a quick conversation with her. Their partner notices and it's like, who's that? And they're like, oh, that's a work colleague. Former work colleague.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Melanie Curtin: Pro tip, don't do that. If you've seen someone, if you've dated a woman, that's someone that I went on a few dates with and we used to work together. So don't bury the lead. Don't avoid the fact that you were romantic. Be honest about it right away. And. Because the thing is that I feel like this is a classic scenario of, well, I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, you know. Well, I was, I was concerned it would be a problem, so I didn't say anything. But you not saying anything is the problem.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that last one is worth highlighting that it's two ways is way, you know, as well in that I've had that experience of like, yeah, and I want her to meet you. Right. Because you're an important part of my life and this is someone who I've had a deep relationship with and is a good friend. And I'm really excited for her to, you know, get to know you, my new partner, who I'm so excited about. So I do think that's a really, really strong strategy and a good litmus test. Right. For, for, for that, that trust and just ability to co create these agreements and introduce someone into your life and your existing connections.
Melanie Curtin: And out of curiosity, have you ever met a partner's guy friends or have you guys ever had a conversation about that and how did that go?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I've met some of my wife's ex partners, you know, people she dated for a short amount of time and then just kind of. It did change more into friendship because they just weren't compatible. And it's felt totally, totally clean, totally easy. There are people that I meet and I'm like, oh, yeah, I could see why you dated. Like, that's a good person. Right? It just, it wasn't a fit and that was just, you know, we know each other pretty well, so I could. There's just a few, you know, you can feel. There's no, like, I could feel there's no residual stuff there. You know, that might not be true for everyone, but in these instances, totally. I could just feel it's like, clean. There's no. There's no lingering attraction or kind of unresolved stuff there, which is possible in certain relationships.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Yeah, I. I like that phrasing. And I'm. I'm remembering a. When I was. I was dating a man for a couple years, and he had. He was in school and he had a. A school friend. They did a bunch of projects together who was a woman, and I met her pretty early on because he was doing a ton of projects with her. And I really didn't have a problem with it. It felt. It's. You know that word that you mentioned, clean. It felt clean to me. It didn't feel like there's a vibe here or it feels weird. And it never felt like he was hiding meeting up with her or it just felt like, yeah, these are. These are two people doing who. They laughed a lot. What I liked about their relationship was they cracked each other up, and I liked that it brought him joy. It was sort of like, oh, that's a great. Good for you. I didn't have, you know, friends like that when I was in school to that extent. And I think that I felt secure in his attachment to me. Like, I could feel that he really thought I was special. So I think there's also a sense of the bond between the couple. You know, for example, you and your wife have a very secure bond. So what it would take to threaten that would be huge versus folks with a less secure bond. Where things are happening in the relationship, there's hidden resentments, the communication is poor. You know, that bond isn't very secure, then other connections are going to feel scarier because there's not that solidity. And I felt like I had that with that particular man. So I noticed. I was like, oh, I feel like other women would have a problem with this. I remember thinking, I feel like other women would have a problem with this. And I really don't. I really don't think that he feels that way about her and etc. So, yeah, I think that that's a great word that you use, clean. Because it feels like when it. When it gets messy in. In situations like this, it's when your needs are not being met in your primary relationship and you're going outside the relationship to try to get them met. So if you're not experiencing emotional intimacy, you're going outside the relationship for that. If you're not experiencing physical intimacy, you're going outside the relationship for that. Neither of which is okay. In both of those cases, you're choosing not to face what's actually so in your primary relationship because it's too hard or it's too scary or you don't know how to do it. And, and that to me is the betrayal. That to me is the part that's like, no, you needed to do that. You needed to actually confront what was happening instead of doing this sideways thing to try to sort of keep things the same over here, but then get your needs met over there. That's not, that's not okay.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Unless it's some kind of explicit agreement. Right. If you are in some kind of open relationship or something. And that's part of it. But what we're talking about is not that case. And I think this is where you men, as listeners, your part in kind of figuring this out is. Yeah. Doing a little inventory to kind of check in. Like, yeah, what is it I get from this relationship? What am I wanting from this relationship? And you know, we use the word. A lot of people use the word. But the opposite of clean would be leaky. Right. There's something kind of leaky about the connection where either there's some attraction there and you know, I'm getting some self esteem or just enjoying that from knowing this person's attracted to me and would want to date me if I was single or, or, or something like that. And that's where sometimes we can get in trouble. Yeah. Because there's something we're not getting from our current relationship. So we kind of leak the container to try to get it from outside. And that's where, you know, real problems can start to exist for, for one, just being. The truth may be you're not in the right relationship and you're not getting what you need. And instead of dealing with that and actually taking an action to change it, you're kind of just getting these side nutrients which is kind of keeping it going for too long versus acknowledging like, yeah, wow, I'm just, I don't feel emotionally connected to my partner or I'm not attract, you know, we're not having sex. There's no connection here. And I need to do something about that. Right. I need to change the state of this relationship or have a deep conversation for one. That that leaky energy can sometimes be a way to perpetuate that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that in the ideal scenario where there is safety and trust, you know, these. These friendships become part of a wider community. Right. I've, you know, I've watched you and Violet bring people into your world and your parties have wonderful people and they're all mixing. You know, it's. It's. And I think that again, coming back to the poly community, I think that's a huge strength of. Of the poly community is that there is an inclusion. It feels inclusive in a different way. That I feel like sort of the heteronormative frame feels. It feels much more like we are all friends. We can, we can all be friends. Instead of you're over there with your female friends and I'm over here with my male friends. And it's like, we are friends. And I really like that as a. As the vision. Right. Of this is what's possible. As we evolve in humanity, as we process trauma, as we become conscious, as we actually do our work, there's possibility for more connection and more, you know, hey, this person's gonna, you know, house sit for us while we're away. This person's gonna watch our dog. It's like it becomes a bigger community, and that strengthens the whole web of everything. And I think, again, that, you know, in the. In the poly community, and if you read the Ethical Slut, you know, once partners are integrated and it's sort of like we are all friends, they'll even do childcare. Like, this partner's gonna do childcare while we're away on this trip. Or it becomes almost like a village. In a healthy way. In a healthy way. And I think that's a strength that humanity can aspire to in this regard. And it doesn't always have to be drama and unprocessed trauma. Once we work through our shit, things get better. It can actually be really awesome. So I think that's a good place to wrap. Do you want to say a little bit about where people can find more on us?
Jason Lange: Yeah. If you go to Evolutionary Men slash training, you can watch the very excellent 35 to 40 minute or so guys. Love it. Video training we did that kind of walks through five important shifts that, whether you're single or married, are very applicable to creating a dynamic, thriving, healthy relationship. And that includes some instructions for how to reach out if you're interested in working with us as well, which I would obviously highly recommend. We have an amazing community and every day is just so incredible with the guys we work with.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. We would love for you to check it out. Evolutionary Men training. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
