There's a moment in every man's life where he looks around his own home and realizes he's living like a stranger. The woman he married feels miles away, the bedroom has become a wasteland, and he's carrying the weight of trying to save something that feels like it's already over. I had a powerful conversation with Melanie Curtin on her show Dear Men about what happens when relationships reach this breaking point, exploring that suffocating feeling of being stuck in a marriage where sex has disappeared, where you're alone in wanting to grow, and where you're not even sure if your partner cares about making it work anymore.
One thing that really stands out to me is how many guys normalize their pain. They'll tell themselves it's not a big deal that they haven't had sex in months, or that it's fine their partner refuses therapy again, or that constant walking on eggshells is just what marriage is. But here's the truth: when your relationship is a source of stress rather than a source of strength, that's a massive red flag. You're supposed to be on the same team, building resilience together to face the world.
I shared my own story of staying too long in a relationship where we both wanted each other to be different than we were. What finally got me out was dropping into my body and feeling the truth: I was preventing her from meeting someone who would love her exactly as she is, and I was abandoning myself in the process. Having a men's group during that time made all the difference. I started my group almost exactly a year before that breakup, and looking back, I think I knew I'd need that support.
We also got into the practical side, red flags to watch for: a partner who refuses to take any responsibility, therapist shopping when feedback gets real, or just this exhausting sense that you can never win. And here's what I tell guys: do the work on yourself first. Get really clear on your part, own your side of the court, show up fully for a real period of time. Then if she's still not willing to meet you, you'll know. You won't be haunted by that doubt of "should I have tried harder?" You'll know you gave it everything.
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Jason Lange: The gap between being growth oriented and not isn't always as deep because when we're young, we're all just kind of like, I don't know what's going on. So sometimes we'll get married to someone young before we've even identified that. Growing is an important value for me. And then discovering that throughout the relationship can be pretty hard.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. Love to have Jason on. Always love the Jason episodes. Thanks for being here.
Jason Lange: Hello.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So today's topic is ripped straight from the headlines of our group, of our coaching group. And it has to do with how do you know when it's time to end the relationship? And for this episode, we're really focusing on marriages. So long term, committed relationships, including those where children are involved. And I'm just going to put this out there right at the beginning. We recently recorded another episode called should you'd stay together for the Kids. And I really recommend, if you have children and this is relevant for you, that you also listen to that episode because it's almost like a part one, part two type thing. We're going to focus more on and everything in this episode. But I really, I do recommend that if you have children involved. So. Yeah. So one of the things that we've noticed is that we've talked to a lot of men and we have a lot of men that we, A lot of our clients are either in marriages right now that may have toxic dynamics or we get divorced men. Right. That have left women where the marriage was toxic in some form or another. And Jason, I'm wondering if you can just speak a little bit to the themes that you've seen in men in troubling relationships, specifically marriages, what are the kinds of things that they're struggling with?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So in the crowd of men we've been working with and men also men I've just worked with in men's group before, different men's groups I've been part of. Some of the themes are oftentimes been together a long time. And one of the first things I'll say that seems to be a bit of a canary in the coal mine is sex. Sex either completely disappears or becomes so infrequent that it's essentially not part of a relationship in any kind of meaningful, connected way. That seems to be a pretty common theme. And a lot of the men we've worked with, there's just not much of a sexual connection anymore. There tends to be not all the time, but with a lot of the guys, a Mismatch sometimes in growth orientation in terms of a desire to just grow the relationship. Right. That a lot of the guys that come to us are wanting more in the relationship they have. So it's not even they're initially like I want to leave or anything. It's I don't feel connected to my wife. We're not having sex. I want more and I want us to grow. I want us to go to therapy or I want us to get help or I want us to do our growth work. And oftentimes some of them are quite alone in that for a number of the guys. And this again, like the should I stay for the kids? This episode kind of builds on a few other episodes we've had too in terms of like what is red flag in terms of abusive behavior or just really toxic emotional behavior, sometimes even physical behavior between partners in the relationship. And that for a lot of guys the thermostat's been so high for so long, they don't even realize it's essentially just all out war on their nervous system every day in terms of like a fight or flight response. And that if there's one thing the masculine is good at in a lot of ways it's like tolerating and normalizing and just oh well, this is how it is. And they don't even realize what else is sometimes possible in a healthy relationship. So those are a few that come to mind from my angle. Actually one last one I'll share that, you know, he's been a guest on your show and is a good friend of mine, is a realization of many of them, not all of them, of how they've co participated in some of these dynamics by falling prey to nice guy syndrome, which is this idea that instead of being able to assert my boundaries and needs, I'm constantly just trying to appease and please my partner, oftentimes sacrificing my own well being.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think you're talking about the guest Dr. Robert Glover, who I've had on a few times. Yes. And he wrote no more Mr. Nice Guy. And you know, this is. There's a couple important things that you mentioned that I wanted to expand on briefly. One is what is normal and what is not. And emotional abuse I think is one of those where it's hard to see or identify. So I've spoken with a number of men where they were with women who were physically abusive, often throwing things for some reason. I've had, I've talked to a lot of men where a woman would throw things at Them. So not necessarily physically hit them, but, you know, that's violent behavior. I guess I just wanted to name. That is violent behavior. That is domestic violence. And I think it's easier to see in some ways. Right. Versus emotional toxic behavior. Emotional abuse is more subtle and can include shaming and emasculating. Right. And criticizing, you know, in a toxic way. That's not. And when I say that, it's like, there's not a lot of vulnerability in it. Right? It's criticizing without the vulnerability of, like, you're always late, like, you're always late. It's. It's just. It's obnoxious. You're obnoxious, versus, like, I feel a little dropped that you're late. There's a difference in the vulnerability inclusion. Is their heart involved in it, or is it just shame and blame and criticism? That's something I've repeatedly witnessed in men that we've worked with in terms of when they're trying to figure out what's normal, what's not, what is my fault, or what is my responsibility, what's not. It's not always that clear. And I think it's a bit similar to child abuse where when there's domestic violence that's physical, there's a clear demarcation between lines, where when it's emotional, it's less clear. And I think for many people, that can be crazy making. Right. It's like, I feel like this isn't normal, but I don't know. And she's telling me it's all my fault. So maybe it is all my fault. And it gets just kind of blurry and confusing, which is, you know, which is the other thing that I think I've heard a couple of times now and just wanted to call out, which is, you know, we've done an episode on borderline personality disorder, which I do recommend for anyone that is with a partner where they're like, I don't think this is totally normal. And there's a lot of red flags and there's toxic dynamics. I think you should listen to that episode. But the other thing is, you know, borderline personality disorder is often misdiagnosed or not diagnosed. And what I'm talking about is couples therapy. So sometimes a couple will go to therapy and the couple's therapist won't know exactly how to handle them or will decide to see them separately or, you know, won't disclose a diagnosis or won't know, you know, borderline is often misdiagnosed. And, um, I think there's A way that sometimes it's like we, we can, we can give our power away. We can give our power away to a therapist or a coach. I'm a coach myself, and I'm not infallible. Right. It's like a part of what we really stress is finding your own power, finding your own truth, tapping into your own intuition. And that might include disagreeing with me or Jason as clients. Right. It's like we're suggesting or we're giving offers, but if that's not right for you, we respect that that's your, your identity, your selfhood will always guide you. And so I've just heard a few things lately of, you know, professionals, mental health professionals that I think were less than helpful. So I guess I just want to normalize that. If you're a man and you've had bad experiences with mental health professionals, that's also included and that's also a part of life. It's like not all mechanics are good mechanics. Not all mental health professionals are good mental health professionals. And that's okay. It doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. But it is important to have a wider lens and to really, you know, get more information, which is probably why you're here. So those were a few of my things that I wanted to expand on. And then I think the last bit I found really important in what you said, which was the co creation part, Right. It's like, it's not an accident that we draw in the partners that we draw in. It's not an accident that we end up with an emotionally toxic woman. For example, if we're a man and we haven't developed boundaries yet, there's a way that our system is recreating a scenario, usually from childhood, where I didn't have my power or I was emotionally abused. Right. By a caregiver. And it's a familiar feeling. And nobody wants to get into this. They're not like, I'd love a wife where I feel small all the time and never have sex. Like nobody. Nobody's going into marriage thinking this is going to suck every.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: It's like a reason that you're marrying this person. Often the sex is really hot at first and there's a lot going for the relationship. And then you get in and you're committed and things can change. And the reason I said that is because one thing I've noticed in the men we've worked with is the emotional experience of chasing. I'm chasing my wife. I'm like, I'm desperate for more Intimacy for physical or emotional. Not just sex, but it. Closeness. I'm desperate for closeness. And there's a desperation, like a. It's like. Like I'm. I'm trying to get this thing. Like, I'm desperately trying to get this thing. I'm leaning in. I'm reading books, I'm listening to podcasts. I'm doing all this stuff. I'm suggesting things. I'm. I'm trying, you know, and just getting shut down. Right. Repeatedly. Just the feeling of, like, she doesn't want to do that. She tells me it's too heavy. I don't want to talk about stuff like that. Or she'll just literally turn away. She literally won't talk about it, which is called stonewalling, which more than one of our men have experienced from their wife, which is a very effective way of shutting down discussion. I just do not talk about that, which means we do not talk about it. Because I'm half of the partnership, so if I choose, we don't talk about that. Well, then that's it. There's no discussion around it. And. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little to what you've witnessed in. In our men around that feeling, the emotional experience of chasing and what it feels like to be shut down repeatedly.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I think 1. Just take it back to what I came in with. One important place this shows up is. Is just sex. And that one really painful area I've seen a lot of our guys come to terms with is the ways they try to minimize that, like, oh, it's not a big deal, or kind of try to normalize that we're not having sex anymore or something. Right. Oh, because she. She doesn't feel it or she doesn't trust me. There's trauma or there's all kinds of reasons, but there's a way to, like.
Melanie Curtin: There'S more than just sex to a relationship. It's not the only thing that's important.
Jason Lange: Yes. But at the same time, then a huge part of their relationship and their self is being shut down and not being nourished, which is extremely important. You know, we've had Dr. Glover work with some of our guys and some bonus stuff before, and, you know, one of the most memorable things I think I took away from one of his sessions with us was, you know, it's. It's kind of simple, but it's like one of the primary agreements in monogamy or marriage is I am agreeing to be with you and not get my sexual needs met elsewhere. So part of that is I'm agreeing to have my sexual needs met by you and you alone. And then if my partner refuses to participate in that, that's like an extraordinarily huge violation of the agreement of that whole thing. Right. Because I've agreed to not go outside of the container. So the expectation there, partly, and this is where it can be a little edgy for guys in that, but I'm not just a sex beast or da, da, da, is that I'm going to get that met. And then it's not met and that whole thing shuts down, which is, again, it's kind of a canary in the coal mine to me. To me of if there's not some kind of connection happening there, then it's the beginning in a large series of something. And then usually what starts with chasing sex becomes just chasing any kind of connection with my partner. And even deeper than that with some of the guys. You know, is. Has come up somewhat recently that I've noticed is just like even chasing the feeling that my partner gives a shit about making this work and wants to make it work. We've had a number of guys get to that realization that, oh, my God, she's just not leaning in. You know, there's not even a oh, my God, I don't know how to do this. So hard for me. I'm scared at all the work I have to do. But I love you and I want to make this work. Right. Those words alone would be a revolution to a lot of men we've worked with. But when that's not even there, that's where it's almost like just doom sets in when they realize, like, oh, there's just nothing. There's no way to win that. There's no way to win that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I. This is really where I want to go with this conversation. Because, you know, there are relationships that are salvageable. There are relationships where it is possible to really directly say, you know, I'm at an impasse. I really love you, and I want this relationship to work. And the truth is, right now it's not working. And for me to stay, I would need us to go to counseling together. I would need you to get somatic therapy for sexual trauma. I would need things to change. And there are relationships where that happens. There are relation. There are relationships where that happens. That's not what I want to talk about in this episode. In this episode, I want to talk about the point that you can get to in a relationship, particularly a marriage, where you have Tried to and tried and tried. And you're not getting that back from your partner. You're not getting signals of movement. You're not getting. You know, we had a client where, you know, his wife was already doing some. Some growth work, and he suggested somatic therapy. And it was received that. That suggestion was received. She was open to it. It was. It was the opposite of shutdown, right? It's like, that's a green flag. That's a. That's like, okay, let's. Let's see where this goes. If you keep getting red flags, if you keep getting shut down repeatedly, there comes a point where a boundary is needed. And I want to talk about this point. Like, this is what I want this episode to be about, which is you can't always make it work. Sometimes the next step is leaving. Sometimes the next step is ending the marriage. Sometimes the next step is divorce. And I think a lot of times we pussyfoot around this or we tiptoe around it. There's a part of us that's terrified of that, that's scared, really scared of what will happen to me? Will I ever be loved again? And also what will happen to the kids? Will the kids ever be loved again? And what will that mean about me if I am a divorced man? What will that mean about me? Some. For some folks, it has to do with religion, right? Shit. I really thought I was going to be this. I was going to be married forever for my whole life to this woman. And so there's an identity piece around all of this, and then there's also the attachment piece of my own personal love, and then there's the kids piece. But what it all starts with is the ability to set a boundary of any kind within relationship. And I know that you have had to do that in past relationships. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your process around specifically setting the boundary of, I need to end this relationship. This isn't serving me, it's not serving her. This isn't healthy anymore. You know, what was that like for you to get to that point? And how was that for you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, that was a long journey for me, a painful journey in a lot of ways. That came a little later than it should have for me. It ties into something. We work with a lot of our men around in terms of getting into our bodies and getting into our feelings, which, whether you're masculine or feminine or whoever you are, there can be a lot of resistance to doing, and we'll find a lot of strategies to think our way out of things or justify things or just numb out. So I was someone that was kind of just numbing out to that. The pain of, of the relationship I was in and the pain my partner was in because I was afraid to leave it because of, oh my God, what if I never find someone again? And I was also just really afraid of hurting her. Like really afraid of hurting her and what that would mean. So for me, it built up and went a little too long, but it finally just happened one night where she was in a bad mood because I was right. This is where it was kind of co created. I was mad at her for something, so I was a little withdrawn. Because I was a little withdrawn. She was feeling withdrawn and feeling unloved. So she kind of made a biting comment to me. And then that biting comment just like triggered something in me where I just noticed I got like really quiet and we had to like run an errand. And that whole time I was like, oh, this just isn't. This just isn't working. This just isn't working. This just isn't working. And it really dawned on me, the pain I was causing by staying in for myself and also for her. And that in our particular constellation there was a realization that I wanted her to be different than she was and she wanted me to be different than I was. And that had been going on for a long time. And it just really hit me that I was like, wow, every day I'm with her, I'm preventing her from meeting another man who would be totally okay with her exactly as she is. And that really hit me is just incredibly selfish. Like, incredibly selfish in some ways, as I unpacked later on, abusive in a different kind of way of like neglecting her heart, my heart in itself. So it just, that was. We had the conversation that night and I was just like, boom, this is. This is it. This isn't working. I knew my heart wasn't in it. I knew it was going to cause her tremendous pain, but I had to set that boundary. And truth be told, what made it so painful was how long I waited. You know, really how long? Because then we really got into the weeds and like when my first doubts started and all that, and that was just what really ripped her heart in half of just like, how the fuck could you do that? So it was huge, huge thing for me. But what it really came down to was, yeah, like, wanting her to be different than she was. Like I said, her wanting me to be different than I. Than I was. And this thing Where I had been a. I had been pretty deep on my growth path before I met her. And she just was in a different phase. She hadn't really done that work yet. There were a few kind of times she tried to start in our relationship, but it was more for me than it was for her. And that was what felt just not quite right in terms of long term. It would have been different, I think, you know, had she been pursuing some things on the side to deepen her healing. You know, other things may have happened, but we were just at different places and it was just, there's no easy way to do this. I know I want something more. I know she deserves something more than this kind of standstill we're at. So I got to end it. And, yeah, that was what it came down to.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. A couple of things to highlight from that. You know, a relationship coach I respect, Jason Gaddis is very firm in this. He says if one person wants to grow and the other doesn't, the relationship is not going to work.
Jason Lange: So it's impossible.
Melanie Curtin: It's impossible. And. And he's not. He doesn't budge on that. He's like, this is how it is. This is like a. It's like a law of physics, right? It's like if this branch of the tree is going this way and this branch is going that way, it's not going to work. And I just wanted to, like, add in a few things, which I think is important. You mentioned, you know, numbing or finding a way. Every man that we've worked with that has been in a bad relationship, I don't know a single one that wasn't numbing in some way, because it is so painful. It is so painful to live, especially if you're cohabitating, to live with a partner when it's not working right. When there are those fraught silences or when there is the constant bickering or just that feeling of distance, it's so painful, human beings can't really stand it. So they find ways of checking out, whether that's porn addiction or gaming. Gaming addiction, marijuana drinking, opioids. I don't know a single man who wasn't doing something to numb the suffering of that pain. And I wanted to mention that in case that sounds familiar to anyone and that sense of what you mentioned, of it wasn't an accident that you just one day decided to set this boundary. You were doing growth work at the time. You were. You, I believe, had had a somatic therapist by that point. You'd done Some men's work. You were in a men's group, you know, there you had support around you that helped you be able to say it wasn't just one day. I magically set a boundary. You know, it was a long time coming. There was support that you had in your life. And I think that's what one thing that we've seen repeatedly from men. You know, I'm vividly remembering a specific call that we had with a man where, you know, he was sharing and about another sort of dramatic episode with his partner at the time. And I said, I'm concerned about this. I'm concerned about what you're describing. And I kind of laid it out right in a straightforward way. And. And then several of the men on the call kind of spoke up and they were like, listen, I was with a woman for seven years that was like this. I was exhausted. It was exhausting. I was never winnable. Like, I'm so much happier now that I'm on the other side. And I remember him getting really, really quiet and just sort of taking it in and kind of just realizing how many men were sort of chiming in with like, dude, this doesn't sound healthy. Like, this does. This doesn't sound good. And I'm. I'm worried too. Like, I'm concerned as well, and how much, you know, how much happier that man was after he did end that particular relationship. It was like, freedom and, you know, possibility, and of course, there was mourning and loss. But, you know, he's now in a healthy relationship with a different woman where it's just easier. It's just. Honestly, it's just easier and it's not so much work. It doesn't feel, like, volatile, as volatile, right. Of, like, things exploding all the time. And I believe for that particular man, one of his concerns was, well, the sex was really good. So not exactly what we just described. Right. Of like, deadbed. It was. It was more like they had a very volatile relationship and the sex was good and he was afraid. He was sort of like, well, if I get into a healthy relationship, what if his sex isn't good? And when he did, he was like, the sex is also great. He didn't have to sacrifice that part. And it was just that everything else was so much easier. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that because your now wife is so growth oriented and does have so many of the qualities that you knew you wanted. You know, part of the reason you left that relationship was because you were like, I want to grow with a partner, it doesn't feel like you want to grow. I can't do this. Like, I can't. You know, you don't. If you don't want to. I don't want to make you right. It's like I don't want to interested in making anyone do anything. I just want to be with someone who wants to. So can you speak a little bit to your experience of. Of the difference and. And the truth about the transition? Because it wasn't like you just went jumped from one relationship to the next. There were a couple years in between. Right. It was, you know, you had. There was a transition phase.
Jason Lange: Yeah, There so much there. The first part I really want to underline in what you said was the exhaustion piece of. That's one of the red flags that we start to help guys realize is like when your relationship is actually a source of stress in your life, that's a big deal that I don't. It shocks me sometimes I think that some guys don't come in even considering that that something else is possible. And I know you and me and my wife Violet, and a lot of modern people in this work. Now, the whole point of relationship is to create a secure bond somewhere that we can build some resilience and resource with each other. So the connection itself helps us face the stresses of life. Doesn't mean there's not going to be stress in the relationship and ups and downs, but overall, if it's only wearing you down and you're not on the same page, you're not on as the same team and there's not that like replenishing each other's buckets, that's a big, big deal. And so, you know, a number of the guys we've worked with, I don't, you know, I know it's kind of an extreme term, but it is like they've been at war and they're just. There's just nothing left. There's just nothing left in the tank from the constant fight or flight and the realization that while you could be in a relationship where being with your partner actually fills you up and de. Stresses you so that when you go out to work or your job or with your friends or your family, you're more resourced. So I think that's a really important one I want to name and that, yeah, the other piece that I know, some of the guys we've worked with have been married for quite a long time. And so one of the struggles is particularly, I think, guys that maybe get married when they're a little younger. The, the gap between being growth oriented and not isn't always as deep because when we're young we're all just kind of like, I don't know what's going on. So sometimes we'll get married to someone young before we've even identified that. Growing is an important value for me. And then discovering that throughout the relationship can be pretty hard. So the advantage of getting back in the game when you're older, so to speak of some kind, if you split up or get into a new relationship, is that awareness, which is. Something became super clear for me in between my last long term relationship and meeting my wife. It was, I want a partner who's already on her path and doing her growth work. I've said that many times before on this as much as I am already independently of me. And that's, that's what I found and that was super important to me because the other piece of that that's more nuanced for, but important calculus for some people is where are they on their path? Because, you know, someone might be interested in doing a certain amount of work, but if it's going to take them five years of deep therapy, how long do you want to wait before you can have a thriving sexual connection? Right. You might not want or feel that it's right for you to wait that five years. You might want to meet a partner who's a little farther along in that journey. You're still both growing, but you're a little bit closer in terms of what's possible between you. And I think that's a really important one. And the group Peace is another thing I'll name that. I was looking for a partner who had resource outside of me in terms of therapy and connection to other women and modalities and growth. My wife Violet absolutely had that for me. Also tying back to something you shared. The first men's group I was in was in Boulder, Colorado before I moved to Los Angeles. And then when I moved here, I didn't quite have a network yet. So I kind of fell out of men's work for a little while and then started to become really clear I was missing it. You know, my life wasn't thriving as much as it could be. And so I started my group and it was almost, almost exactly a year after I started a peer group here in LA that I broke up with my then partner. And, and in reflection I can realize, oh my God. Part of the reason I started with this group was because I knew this was Something I was going to have to do, and I knew I would need support in it. And I luckily had men's group the day. The day after, the evening after we broke up and literally just having a space. I walked in the door. Everyone could notice. They just looked at me, and I just started crying and just burst into tears. And, you know, they held me as I kind of talked about what happened and where I was at and just, you know, open to how painful it was. I knew I needed that going into it. And that's the thing I think most guys need, is they. They've been playing it so close to the chest in this war with their partner, so to speak, that they don't even have resources or connection and have normalized all this stuff that there's. It is really hard. The idea of leaving feels impossible because it's like, if I don't have this connection, what do I have? And finding a powerful group like ours or another that can really support you in that is going to make that a lot easier.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I wanted to expand upon that a little bit, just what you said of playing it close to the vest, because I've heard this word a couple times from men of I've been keeping it a secret. I've been keeping it a secret, and often from family members, like how hard it's been, how some of the things that have happened, that sense of secrecy, of needing to hide, wanting to hide what's going on, that's another red flag. If you're finding that you're. You're keeping things from people that are close to you in your life or your family members, that's not normal. That's a sign of an unhealthy relationship. That's not normal. And I'm not talking about keeping confidentiality between you and your partner. That's appropriate, but I'm talking about the level and extent of the misery that you're suffering or the extent of the arguments or the fighting or things that have happened that felt really terrible that you're like, I can't tell anyone this. This is a secret. That's. That's. That's concerning. Yeah, And I really liked what you said of that. You know, there was a part of you that probably knew this breakup was. Was coming, and you started the men's group because you kind of knew, okay, I'm going to need some solid people around. Need some men around me that can, like, hold me. And maybe you weren't fully conscious of that, but I think there's something beautiful about your Your soul leading you in the direction, okay, I've got my. I've got some support. You know, I've got some legs to stand on. Because boundaries are hard. Boundaries are really hard. Even when you've done a bunch of work. Boundaries are crunchy, man. They're. Because often they're activating a very young part of us, and that young part is shaky. It just is shaky, and it needs other to hold it. So it's. It's there. I don't know anyone for whom. It's like, boundaries are completely comfortable, and I sail through them. Like, it takes emotional energy. It takes effort. It's. It's. You know, it's hard. It's not impossible, but it's hard. And having people around you, like you said, to run things by and to hold you after and to comfort you and soothe you and help you is critical because that isolation, that feeling of, I'm all alone, I'm just completely isolated. Is debilitating. Is debilitating. It tends to keep you in place. It tends to keep you locked in the same scenario you've been in. It's hard to break out of that if that's how you're feeling.
Jason Lange: Totally. The other thing that that group over that year did for me was having a consistent place to drop in and check in how I was doing. Like, the patterns become a little clear. If every time I'm checking in with my group, part of it's about the pain I'm in around my relationship, that it gets noticed in the group and having other men that I trust to bounce off of, hey, here's what's going on. I don't know if, is this me? Is this her? Is this both of us? Like, what's the constellation here? Should I be trying harder? Should I get out? That all just helps get really clear over time. And that's the thing we see a lot with the guys we're in of just the, hey, here's kind of what's going on. What do you guys think? And when, like, eight men you trust are like, ooh, that seems really hard. It seems pretty painful for you and pretty unwinnable. Like, I care about you, and I don't think that's right. It tends to unlock something and, like, oh, my God, totally. You know, a lot of times, the beauty of having trusted third parties, whether it's a therapist or a men's group or coaches, is. Is they can kind of see things that sometimes we don't necessarily want to see or are struggling to come to terms with. But when those outside eyes that we trust really just kind of name it, it's like, okay, yeah, yeah, right. Like this isn't working. And to even know like some of the things we've talked about today of, you know, what are the things to look out for and start to have a plan, so to speak, I think is one of the important things of, you know, some of the red flags, like my partner's not open to growth, unwilling to have sex, a big one in terms of kind of maybe the more BPD side, but that we've sometimes seen is just an unwillingness to take any responsibility. It's always your fault, you did this. You, you, you, you, you, you. Which you could change everything. And rarely is that going to change the dynamic because again, every relationship is co created. Another one I've seen a lot is I do lead us into some kind of couples therapy. But we keep changing over therapists every couple months because every time we start to get somewhere she doesn't like that therapist anymore. And then we got to move on. That to me is a pretty big red flag. Now sometimes it could just be a crappy therapist, that's possible. But when that pattern happens two or three times, particularly if that therapist or counselor is giving your partner feedback around their part and as soon as that happens, they're like, we can't work with them anymore. Huge red flag, huge red flag. And then just knowing, I mean, the other one that's been super frequent for us in terms of that plan is like literally talking to men who are on the other side. And like, you know, we had some guys sharing this week with, with a man in our program of like, hey, you know, my experience is close but a little different than yours. And I just want you to know, a year later, here I am. And I'm so glad I made the change. I'm happier, I'm more relaxed and I feel more empowered in the relationships I'm in. Something about that too is like, it's not the end. It's not the end. Doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but it is not the end.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think for a lot of those men, it's like, I got out of jail. There's an experience of like I was in jail and I'm out of jail and life is just better outside of that particular prison. It's, you know, it's not everything's peaches and cream, but it is an experience of wow, that was a relief. Your nervous system gets a chance to kind of relax and it's not on all the time trying to manage this relationship or this, that exhaustion you talked about, all of that stuff, removing that from your life really gives you a chance to heal and grow. Because when you're just in flight all the time, your body really can't do a lot. It doesn't have a lot of resources for growth. It's just trying to get by. It's just trying to survive.
Jason Lange: Next thing, next thing, next thing, next crisis, next crisis, next crisis. Very little resource for like, where am I going with my life? What nourishes me? What do we care about? Like, all of that is offline. Generally when couples are in this kind of war zone, as I'd say of the fight or flight or constant threats, you know, just the things that we're not meant to be in long term, particularly with our intimate partner.
Melanie Curtin: Exactly. So as we start to wrap up here, you know, usually I will direct men to our free training. But I think for this conversation, if you're resonating with this and you just want to reach out directly and you want to talk to one of us, you should just email me@dearmen podcastmail.com and we'll set up a call for you. Because this is a bit more of a vulnerable space and I just, I kind of want to just make it direct. If you're interested in talking to us, you can do that. And is there anything else that you would want to leave listeners with in terms of this topic? I would also just reiterate that we really didn't talk about the kids angle in this podcast. And if you do have children, and that's a very central concern for you, I would listen to the other episode called should we stay together for the Kids?
Jason Lange: Yeah, the last thing I'll maybe just say that I, I tend to approach guys with that are in this situation in terms of the kind of sober reality check of even what doing something like working with us, you know what that might allow for in that you can do all the work with us, completely change how you're showing up in relationship and your presence and your availability and your emotional attunement. And like we said, if your partner's not willing to lean in and meet you, even if you do everything right, it just may not work. Where we do like to try to get guys, is this sometimes hard first step but really important of just ripping off the blinders and taking a cold hard look at how have I contributed? Where can I take responsibility for how I have or haven't shown up? In the relationship, what can I do to completely own my side of the court? You know, how I'm co creating this and then committing to using the skills we teach, going all in for a certain period of time to just try to make it work for some period of time that is a little different from each guy. And you know, for guys in more extreme situations becomes a little clearer pretty soon. But for guys that are maybe a little bit more on the fence, what I found is it's very different. The feeling of choosing to walk away when I know I've really shown up, I've really given it my all. I didn't quit, I, I put in everything I could and then I still get that feedback that my partner is not willing to meet me, not willing to do the work. It's still always my fault. Then I just, then it's so clear it's unwinnable because I'm really trying. And no matter how hard I try, nothing's changing. I have changed my behavior. I have become more present, available in all the different things. I have gotten resourced with other men in my life and still. And then I've just seen it's, it doesn't make the split up easier, but it makes that little critical self doubt that a lot of guys get stuck in of like should I or shouldn't I have? Did I make the right choice or did I versus just like, wow, no, I know I really showed up and it didn't work so I can move on. So that's part of what is possible for you to get working with us or another deep group to just totally own your side. Which the good news is if it works, your relationship may thrive. If it doesn't work for that, all that investment you've put into yourself will pay huge dividends in helping you attract the next partner who is going to be available to meet you in all that.
Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. What a great place to end on is that either way you're going to win, right? Either it's going to work with this partner or it's going to work with the next partner. But the depth work, the transformation that I've witnessed in our men continues to just astound me and tends to even increase over, you know, there's the transformation with, you know, in the program, but then there's the months and the years after. That's like, wow, these guys are really going for it and they just have so much better lives than before. And it's, yeah, it's just a constant source of joy. So we'll end there if you want to. If you do want to book a call, just email me@dearman podcastmail.com and we will set it up. D.
