There's a moment in every man's life where he realizes he's carrying a secret that feels too heavy to share, too shameful to admit, and too defining to ignore. For me, that secret was being a virgin until 26. I recently opened up about this on Melanie Curtin's podcast Dear Men, diving into territory I rarely explore publicly.
The conversation explored what it's actually like to carry that kind of secret, the anxiety that builds the longer it goes on, and how shame around inexperience creates this self-reinforcing loop. I shared about freezing up in moments where intimacy could have happened, the fear of judgment, and that gnawing feeling of "what's wrong with me that I can't figure this out?"
What shifted things for me wasn't just having sex. It was nervous system work with a somatic therapist, learning to be comfortable with touch and in my own body. There was also grief I had to process about missing out on certain experiences I imagined others had. And honestly, starting to talk about it at all, even just in therapy, began moving that stuck energy.
We also talked about how experience isn't really what matters. Plenty of men have had lots of partners and are terrible lovers. What actually creates good sex and intimacy is presence, being in your body, and trusting yourself enough to name what's true in the moment. I shared a story about being on a date with a woman older than me, feeling intimidated, and just saying it out loud. That vulnerability was the turn-on, not my level of experience.
If you're carrying shame about being inexperienced, whether sexually or relationally, know that you're not alone. And that the work isn't about getting confident or faking it. It's about getting present, doing the nervous system healing, and learning to trust yourself enough to show up as you actually are.
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Jason Lange: Wow. Okay. Really, the difference between not and having it was just like trusting myself and being relaxed in my body to feel when the moment was right, if that makes sense. And that's kind of what I was missing out on because I was often just so anxious.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. Today, we are talking about whether it's an issue if you are sexually inexperienced as a man or you are a virgin as a man in terms of sex and dating and relationships and all that. So I'm thrilled to welcome Jason back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.
Jason Lange: Always good to be here.
Melanie Curtin: And part of the reason we chose this topic is that a lot of the men coming into our coaching program have a fear or an insecurity around this topic. And so we kind of wanted to address it and provide some reassurance. So, Jason, you actually have both personal experience with this and experience as a coach. So I'm wondering if maybe you could just give us a sort of sketched outline of your, you know, experience with the sort of fear or insecurity around, you know, sexual inexperience.
Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. So, you know, like so many things in our work, the work we do starts a lot with my personal story and why I feel inspired to support men in these arenas. And for me, which we've gotten into more generally in some previous episodes, I was a late bloomer, so to speak, and I was a virgin until I was 26 and had really no experience. It wasn't even until college that I kissed a girl. So it was something I was carrying a lot of anxiety and a lot of shame about for various reasons. And for me, you know, this. Even the idea of this kind of, you know, burst into consciousness with the 40 year old virgin, which was in 2005, I think about two years before I lost my virginity. But it was something, you know, I've always been lucky, as I've talked about before that even in the struggles I've had with connection and going deep, particularly with the feminine, I've always had good guys around me in life. I've always had, like a clique of guys that I understood and I got along with, but I did not talk to them about this. So being a virgin was something in my 20s that, and in college in particular, you know, I held a lot of anxiety, a lot of shame around, and I was not comfortable talking about. And I was not comfortable talking about it because I was embarrassed. You know, I thought by now a normal guy should have had sex, and some of my closest friends did not know some of the men closest to me in life, I did not tell. I do not think it would have been an issue for them had I told them. It was more on my side of the court that I was too nervous, too anxious, and it was the kind of thing that caused a lot of discomfort for me. One of the places I remember the most I used to dread was going on trips or adventures with friends and then, you know, inevitably we'd be staying in a cabin or something and games like never have I ever would pop up and they would always move towards sex and I would always just find a reason to not play and kind of hang out more on the sidelines because I just didn't want to go there and be that. I've never done that, never done that, never done that. And it always cost, you know, tension for me. And it was one of those things that the longer it went, the more of kind of a self reinforcing anxiety it became. So the older I got and the longer it didn't happen, the more embarrassed and the more ashamed I actually got and the more fearful I became of what that first interaction with a partner was going to be like, because I already knew I'd be nervous just because I didn't know what I was doing. But then there was a fear that, oh, wow. And if I tell her this, will it not happen, so to speak.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. Well, first of all, I feel sad about your experience with never have I ever, because it just feels like so much stress about this. It feels like there's a lot of stress and tension like you mentioned and just sort of like, I mean, would you be, would it be fair to say it was a secret?
Jason Lange: Oh, it's totally secret. I, you know, some people probably maybe intuited it, but no, you know, because I never really had a girlfriend or anything like that. But it was a secret. It wasn't something like I talked to anyone about. Maybe, you know, a year or two before I lost my virginity is when I started therapy. So I think my, my therapist knew that that was a thing for me, but that was about it.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And that kind of makes me sad because you were holding it all alone, right? Like, you know, your indication that you had friends, you had good guy friends, you had people around you that you trusted. But, but this was this thing apart, it was this thing over here on the side that's like, I don't want anyone to know this because what will they think of me? Or will I be seen as less than or, I mean, what Were your fears around? Was it just like, I'm so embarrassed, I should. I should have this done already?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it was a lot of embarrassment, definitely a lot of shame around, like, not knowing, you know, why I didn't have it figured out or how I didn't have it figured out or. And just that feeling of. I think it's. It's like related to the embarrassment of when there's something, you know, I've been embarrassed about, of just not wanting the attention around that because it, like, heightens it in a sense. So there's a fear that, oh, if we start talking about this, then I'm like, really gonna have to talk about it and be with that discomfort, which at the time, you know, I wasn't particularly good at. So it was a lot of just like kind of ignoring and numbing out in many of the ways, you know, I've talked about previously on this. On this show.
Melanie Curtin: Right. And one of those ways might have been porn. Right. There's an irony of, like, I'm feeling shame about not being sexually experienced, and so I'm gonna numb and the way I'm gonna num watching porn. There's just a funny circular nature to that. But it's a very, very popular thing that we see in the guys coming into our program and the guys you talk to frequently, I mean, that's not an infrequent occurrence. So it's actually pretty common for that.
Jason Lange: To be the case.
Melanie Curtin: And so can you explain a little bit about how this affected your interactions with women and going on dates and things like that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, you know, they're looking back. There were opportunities, had I been more relaxed in myself, that whether or not it led to, you know, full on sex, there were opportunities that I could have explored. You know, there were women. There were women I spent time with, you know, eventually that I kissed, but I would just kind of lock up, like, it would it kind of be like a freeze or more of like a subtle avoidance? It's kind of hard to explain. It wasn't like I totally froze up. It's just I wouldn't take the next step, if that makes sense. So we're not.
Melanie Curtin: Go ahead.
Jason Lange: Yeah, we'd just be like making out and then I would kind of get like stuck in anxiety there as opposed to, you know, I think there were women open to me at different times, but I wasn't able to kind of move it forward. And then I think when I didn't, there was like a little like, oh, okay. And then you Know, the energy kind of cooled off. It was really fear on my part.
Melanie Curtin: And would you say that it was because you were afraid that if you moved it forward, you wouldn't perform well and then she wouldn't like you anymore? Or was it a different fear?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it was just a fear of, you know, not feeling confident or really knowing what I was doing, which, you know, is maybe a little overblown in, like, a real sense of. Obviously, I'd watched a lot of porn, so I knew how sex worked, but I think there was a fear of, you know, what would my body actually do? How would it work? And I think just the. You know, I think related to this is just the vulnerability of it in some sense that. Because I think it had so much charge in my nervous system, there was a fear of, like, emotionally, what it would mean, if that makes sense. Like, oh, would something come up? Or would I. I didn't really know. There was just, like, this precipice, and it scared me a lot.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm wondering if you can just go into that a little bit in terms of, like, was it like, oh, my God, what if I cry? Like, what if I do something embarrassing that makes me look bad? Or was it more like just fear of the unknown? Like, I don't know what the fuck's gonna happen?
Jason Lange: I think it wasn't something so specific. I think it was just right, fear of. There was energy in my nervous system locked up around this. You know, I didn't have any of this language or words then, but there was, like, discomfort there that I just didn't feel like I had the capacity to go into and just be okay with. I think because I did, because I hadn't told anyone, and because I had internalized a lot of shame around it, my relationship to that was really the kind of limiting factor, if that makes sense. Yeah, I held anxiety around it. And so those moments would kind of, you know, like, when I. Like what I said, where I wouldn't necessarily make the next move, it would kind of become this weird, anxious pause moment. And, you know, there was a few times I could tell, you know, the women were maybe a little confused. Um, and then that's when kind of things. Then that would trigger all my stuff in my nervous system about being uncomfortable around the feminine and anxiety and everything. And then it would kind of just go down from there.
Melanie Curtin: Got it. So it'd be like, you're not moving things forward. You can tell she feels kind of weird. Like, I don't know, maybe he doesn't want me. Maybe there's something wrong. But he's not. I'm not really sure. So you can feel her get a little tense, and then you're like, oh, my God, I suck at girls. I'm never gonna get this right. Holy shit. And then your body's like, well, we're done now.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Okay.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And then, you know, a fear of just judgment or, you know, I think one of the underlying fears that I certainly experienced or feelings that I have heard from, you know, men I've connected with is the, like, what's wrong with me? Like, normal people should be able to do this. And since I haven't, there must be something about me that's not normal, if that makes sense.
Melanie Curtin: Like, I'm defective. There's something wrong.
Jason Lange: Totally. Like, it's easy for everyone else, but it, you know, it doesn't work for me or it's uncomfortable for me. And, you know, that's not a particularly relaxed place to get into an intimate moment from. I think if I'm carrying that.
Melanie Curtin: No, it's not. Not conducive to sexy time. So you mentioned having a therapist, and it's interesting because I wonder if that was part of what sort of helped prepare you or sort of dislodge some of the shame around it. Because I really think that shame loud in this conversation in terms of, like, what you said, of just the freeze response or feeling stuck around it. You know, part of the intention of this episode is to have men feel less alone. So if you are a man listening that you feel less alone and know that there isn't anything wrong with you, it really. It. There are millions of men in this same position, but a lot of them aren't talking about it. Like Jason said, you know, they. Even if they have close friends, they just. They're just like, I should have had this handled by now, or, you know, what's wrong with me that I'm still a virgin at this age or that I'm not as experienced, et cetera. And so I'm wondering, do you think there was a link between you kind of expressing that to your therapist and being held around it that had you feel safe enough to have sex when you were 26?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I definitely think that was one of the things that started moving that energy for me. You know, the. There's that phrase and a lot of somatic work. You know, if you speak it, it gets lighter and there's just something towards. Oh, okay, I said that, like, literally just saying the words out loud as simple as that is already started to, you know, move some energy in my nervous system because I had said it out loud. It's like this weird thing, but it's like, oh, it's actually moved through my neurology to be able to say it. And then, you know, part of that, you know, my therapist was woman and she was a somatic therapist. So, you know, our early sessions were really about me negotiating comfort and physical space and just noticing, you know, what was the distance away that would like cause anxiety in my nervous system if she got even closer or farther and just starting to notice and really kind of break down these things in my body. And then, you know, one of the most game changing moments I've mentioned on our calls before was she worked in kind of like a mixed modality clinic. And so she arranged once for us to have a somatic therapy session, but while a body worker was working on me. And that was, that was intense. You know, that was very new for me. I hadn't had a lot of touch in my life at all, particularly from the feminine. And so part of our, you know, one of our big sessions was her being there with me, connecting to me, checking in with my body, having me check in with myself and helping me learn to just communicate like this feels good, this doesn't feel good, or I'd like more of this and just voicing that stuff. And receiving the touch was so transformative for my nervous system that I think that really kind of set the ground of I was literally just more comfortable in my body.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's a big deal because we're talking about a massage therapist, right? When you say bodyworker, you mean massage therapist.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And the, and this was not a sexual experience. This was not, this was non sexual, but just physical touch. You know, I think a lot of the guys that we work with came from homes where physical touch, physical affection, just love and caring attention was lacking in some way. And so there. So if that, if you are one of those people, then your body is less comfortable with receiving touch, giving touch, being physical and sex happens in the body. So it would make a lot of sense that someone whose body isn't really doesn't really feel safe with touch yet or asking for what you want, receiving, just all of that stuff. You know, that makes a lot of sense to me that it'd be like your nervous system doesn't really feel safe there. And so of course there's a part of you that's sort of been avoiding it or pushing it away while Simultaneously feeling like, I should be there, I should have had sex by now. Right. So your conscious mind is like, this has to get done. Like, why aren't we doing it? And the body's like, I don't really actually feel that safe. Like, that's part of what's going on here. And I think that's really speaks poignantly to the power of somatic therapy and, you know, coaching. All of these growth paths that we talk about, why they're so important, because it helps the holistic system, the full system, body, mind and heart all be in alignment. Because it's so painful when it's like, I want this thing. But if your body, your unconscious is blocking that thing, it's going to be really hard for you to get it. There's a part of you that doesn't feel safe, that needs to feel safe before you can move in that direction.
Jason Lange: 100%. Totally. So there was. There was literally just re patterning my nervous system to be able to feel more comfortable in my body and with touch, giving and receiving. And then, you know, this was a longer journey. But that was also around the time that I think I started a more full grieving process in that there was actually a loss that, you know, I had to process starting then and over the years of, you know, what I would kind of label. Not that there's such thing as a normal sexual experience. Right. For. For anyone in a sense of like, there's one way for it to go. But I noticed, you know, one of the things I had to grieve over the years was having what I would label as like that shared innocent experience with someone else who else may also maybe was earlier on their. On their path, had never had sex or only once or twice. And that kind of like feeling of we're exploring this together that I felt like was one of the things I really missed out on that I yearned to have had, you know, in my mid to late teenage years that whether or not that's true and people actually have that, that was an imagined thing I thought a lot of, you know, other people must have had that. I just had to grieve. I just had to grieve that. Like, yeah, that's not. That was not part of my experience, you know, that's not something I got to have in, in this life. And I think again, like so many things we talked about as I began that grieving, that also just made more space in my nervous system.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, what I hear in there is regret over lost, like missed opportunities or like, oh, man, this could have gone differently. Like, I could have had, you know, makeouts when I was a teenager. I could have lost my virginity with someone who was also losing hers. We could have, you know, fumbled around together. And, oh, and now I'm remembering this other woman that I, you know, pretty sure I could have slept with when I was 20 and 24 and I missed this signal and just all of that sort of like, ugh, you know, grief around what. Around what was missed or the feeling of what was missed totally.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think this is a good, you know, transition to. Well, two things. First of all, I. One of my very first coaching clients ever was 29, and he'd never had sex. And he actually. So we worked together for about three months, and in month two, he actually had sex with a woman. And I think I was similar to you. I was one of the first people he had told. And I was like, this is not a big deal. Like, I totally support you. Yeah, I'm a little surprised just because I'm like, oh, you're a good looking dude. Like, I don't really know why that is, so. But I think it's a good sort of reminder that it's really not about how we look on the outside, it's how we feel on the inside that kind of dictates our lives in many ways. And so, anyway, I totally supported him. I was like, this is. This is totally doable. This is fine. There are lots of women who want to have sex. There are women who are going to want to have sex with you. I taught him about handkerchiefs and picking up on signals, and I think it just kind of relaxed him overall. And his birthday was coming up, and he actually ended up sleeping with a woman the week of his birthday. And I was like, happy birthday to you, dirty 30. But I was really proud of that because I felt like it's a little bit like the unsticking of a dam, where it's like, okay, this is energy that can flow for you now. And this sort of identity piece that you mentioned around just like, just the tightness I'm holding in the nervous system of like, oh, my God, what's wrong with me that I haven't. I'm still a virgin. I'm still a virgin. I still haven't figured this out. You know, this. All of that tension can kind of get released and you can move forward from there now. One thing I thought was interesting that you mentioned was that you didn't tell the woman that you were with. And my client also didn't tell the woman he was with. But I do think that it's very doable to tell someone and to share with that person, like, hey, I've never done this before, and I'm really excited to have sex with you. Like, you can kind of pair them. Because I think that, you know me, speaking for the feminine, I would love to know that the man desires me. And he's like, I've never done this before. I'm a little nervous. And I really like you. I'm really excited to have sex with you. I'm so happy we're making out right now, or however it is that he brings it up. But I would be endeared to that person. I would be like, oh, that's great. Like, I'm, you know, I'm excited too. And, like, we'll figure it out together. Even if I had already had sex, that's not at all a problem for me. What's more stressful is what you mentioned of, you know, the man is. He's obvious something's going on. Either he's anxious or he's nervous or. But he's not sharing anything with me. And so I'm sort of like, I don't know. Did I do something wrong? Does he not like me? Does he not think I'm hot enough? Is it because my stomach's not flat? Is it, you know, like, I make it about me, and I think a lot of women do that, too. And it just leaves me kind of confused and disoriented. Instead of, he's sharing with me what's actually happening for him. That's much easier for me to navigate and makes me feel closer to him rather than confused and kind of like what's going on.
Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. That's, you know, with the depth of awareness I have now, that would be a conversation I could have had. I can see now that I think she would have been open to and it would have been fine. But still, I was kind of just being run with by the fear a little bit and just kind of wanting to get it done, so to speak. So, yeah, I could kind of open that channel in myself and that, you know, in the types of work we recommend for guys now, it's more that, yeah, like, what's the status of the connection and how present are you? That's what really matters. Right? Like, that's. That's really what matters. And, you know, it was my. The thing I really see in retrospect is it was my gripping around it that was the issue so much. And that, you know, was one of the light bulbs that had kind of started going off as I did kind of mature into my sexuality. A little bit of like, wow, okay. Really, the difference between not and having it was just like, trusting myself and being relaxed in my body to feel when the moment was right, if that makes sense. And that's kind of what I was missing out on because I was often just so anxious. But as I, you know, as I moved on from that, it got easier and I learned to just trust myself and relax myself, Relax into myself even more and not be so worried about, you know, doing it right, so to speak.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's one of the things that I saw repeatedly when I was doing the research for my course, Please her in Bed. I was asking women about the men who are best in bed, and it was consistently how present he was. Is he present? Is he with me? Is he paying attention to my body? Is he paying attention to his body? It was not. Does he have a large cock? Is he jackhammering me? The way they do in porn. Like, that was not what came up. And we know, when I think about it, some of the best sexual experiences I've ever had have been not penetrating experiences. They haven't. It hasn't mattered that we had full sex. The way that every, you know, almost every porn video that I see is like this. We do this and then we do this, and then we do this, and then the guy fucks her and then it's over. It's like, that's not actually what real women want. And I find that to be. If I were a man, I would find that very reassuring. Like, it doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to be hard the whole time. For example, it's more about, are you present in your body with her? That's really, honestly, truly what women care about. I'm not just like, you know, bullshitting. Like, I surveyed 10, 67 women and put together a whole course about it, and that's one of the primary tenets of it. So I'm wondering if at this point we can talk a little bit about the men you've spoken to, because you've spoken to, like, over 400 men. And this is one of the issues that has come up repeatedly. I'm wondering if you can just share a little bit about what you've seen in those guys in terms of their feelings around this.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. So as part of the program you and I run, I offer a free call to get a sense of what's going on for a guy and whether or not we're the right fit for each other, for them to work with us and us to work with them. And so I've gotten to hear a lot of stories, every kind of story you can imagine. Men from early 20s, up until their 60s, married, divorced, single, virgins, all of it. But definitely, you know, one of the areas I've, obviously, I feel the most proud of is creating a space where, you know, other guys that, like me, are just late bloomers or virgins feel like they can kind of step into and start just talking about that. And the experience thing, I think, really is just a big anxiety and fear and type of shame that a lot of guys carry because, you know, in a lot of the work we talk about, in terms of polarity, it's about, you know, the masculine kind of taking the lead. And I think implicit in that, for a lot of us late bloomers, is, well, how do I take the lead if I've never done something before, you know, and will that turn her off? And will anyone, any woman, want to be with me if I, you know, haven't. If I don't have sexual experience? And so that's the thing that, you know, I definitely see a lot of those guys wrestling with and feeling anxiety about. And like me seems to kind of intensify as time passes because the longer the time passes, the more it kind of feels like a big deal, if that makes sense. And they just haven't had anyone to talk about it to, to kind of normalize it and be like, yeah, that's okay, that's totally normal. And I think, you know, one of the things I've certainly learned that I would hope anyone out there listening that's maybe in a similar situation like you just spoke to realizes is that experience per se isn't what matters. Like, there are plenty of men that have had a lot of sex or a lot of girlfriends and are absolutely terrible as lovers.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: Terrible.
Melanie Curtin: Underscore that. That I. Yes.
Jason Lange: Or terrible as boyfriends. Like, it's not. Experience isn't just like a quantity thing. I think the deeper thing we're talking about that experience can often lead to for us is a relaxation in our bodies and just a trusting of ourselves and what to do. Right. That if we have enough experience oftentimes then we're not as stressed out about it. You know, if we practice a sports drill or learning a speech or something. Like once it's kind of in our body, something relaxes, which on the outside we often talk about, kind of looks like confidence. But it's not the number there that matters. Right. It's just the state of how do I feel in my body and am I connected to my intuition and trust? And you can actually get there without a lot of so called technical experience, if that makes sense. All the things we talk about, if you're in your body, if you're present, if you're focused on connection, you could have no previous sexual experience and probably easily be the best lover certain women have ever had, period.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Just really want guys to know, like get that. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And I, you know, when I was prepping for this episode, I was thinking about one thing that might help men is just to flip it around. So if you were with a woman and she knew she had not had sex before and she felt really inexperienced and she was stressed out and anxious about it, you know, would you not want to have sex with her? Would it matter to you? Would you think that she was going to be bad or would it be like, oh, that's fine, we'll figure it out together. Like, it's okay, right? Like, insecurity goes both ways. And they're definitely women who have the same fears, right? They're like, shit, I haven't done it yet. What's wrong with me? I don't know. What if I fuck it up? What if I do something wrong and look, like, really stupid? You know, like, yeah, there's a. You know, it's happening on the other side too. And so. But if you. If you sort of put yourself in that position and you're like, oh, that's. I would be fine with that. Remember that there are women that are like that as well, right? They're sort of like, this isn't a problem. I just want to connect with you. Like, I like you. I want to be physical with you. Like, I'm. I'm interested, and so it's okay. And the other thing I was just curious about, since you've talked to so many men, is, is there also. Has there been anxiety for men that are getting a divorce or separated or haven't had sex with another woman in a really long. Have you seen, like, are those men at all anxious about, like, getting back out there and everything?
Jason Lange: Oh, totally. I think a lot of guys that have been married that, that we work with, I think there's sometimes, you know, part of why things are transitioning in that relationship is there was a loss of connection or physical intimacy, you know, which is really hard. Just really hard. Really hard to be in a committed relationship where part of the agreement is we agree to, you know, not have sex with anyone else and then not be getting that from your relationship, that there is often some anxiety around there and just like, what are the norms, you know, for guys that come to us sometimes that have been married 10, 15, 20 years, they come out and they're like, this looks totally different than it did when I last dated. You know, like, online dating was barely a thing. It's just such a different world. Texting and communication and all that. And, like, what are the norms now for how people connect and how they. How they become intimate with each other? So I've definitely seen that anxiety with men of all ages. And it's not just limited to, you know, those of us guys that were more late bloomers, but just any guy who's kind of either been in a relationship for a really long time or just not had the ability to connect that part of their lives for a while.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And it. It feels, again, it just feels important to sort of highlight what you said about Sexless relationships. So the psychology community defines a sexist relationship as a relationship where you're having sex 10 times a year or fewer times. So just under once a month. And there are a lot of people in sexist relationships. They estimate it's around 15% of couples are in sexless relationships. I think that number is more like 20 to 25. And it's really painful. Like you said, it's just, it's a really painful experience because you've sort of sealed all the exits. If you are in a committed relationship, a committed monogamous relationship, you're not quote unquote allowed to or supposed to have sex with anyone else. And I think that that's a common experience. And I think it's an experience where a lot of men feel trapped, and women too. But this podcast is for men. But a lot of men feel trapped and sort of like, I don't know how to address this. I don't know what to do. I've tried to talk to my wife about it, which in many cases, I think some men will say things like, we're just roommates and think that they've had the conversation, which is not the case. It requires much more than that. But at a certain point, it's like, where I really feel a lot of compassion for men is just the feeling of being unwanted, right? The physical experience of feeling unwanted, undesired. If I approach her for sex, she says, no, she doesn't approach me for sex. Just all of the sort of unwantedness. And so if I imagine being in that situation, getting out of that relationship, moving into new relationships, it's like, am I gonna be wanted? Am I, am I at all desirable in general? Like, is this just over for me? Like, what, you know, what is this gonna be like? Because I've spent all of these years sort of feeling unwanted. And that can, I really think that can affect your, your nervous system, your identity, just everything around that. And it is important to get support around that because it's. It. It can kind of, I don't know, create a groove or something around that.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's a really great point and I, I do think that's a compelling argument to doing the work is that then you get to have great sex. What's more compelling than that?
Jason Lange: Yeah. And you know, the last thing I just want to mention kind of circling back into this deeper thing. I know now that like I said, I wasn't able to do with, with the first woman I was with in terms of like really speaking to vulnerably sharing my experience of where I'm at. I started getting there, closer, you know, as the, as the time went on and you know, there was someone I was dating maybe two years later than that. And I just want to share this as an example, I think of what is possible and that difference between, you know, quantity based experience and this thing you and I talk about of presence was I was on a date with a woman who was older than me. She was four or five years older than me. I was actually super intimidated by that. She just seemed someone really comfortable in her body, really grounded and more mature and you know, tied to that was just anxiety around sex. Again of wow, I think, you know, this is a different type of woman that I've been with before. And I was feeling some nervous about that on a date and I just named it. It's just like, hey, I just gotta let you know there's part of me that feels really intimidated by the fact that you're older than me. And I feel like you have a lot more experience than me. And I just, you know, I just want you to know that and Right. The paradox was that actually ended up super turning her on. Like she, she really liked that. A, I had a sense of my internal experience and B, I could name it. That was actually what the turn on was, not how experienced I was, how suave a lover I was. It was that I was able, I was in touch with my body and able to name it in the present moment. And that was something she hadn't had a lot of men be able to do in her presence. So, you know, take heart, guys. That. That's. That's a really important thing.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And that's, I think, where a lot of guys don't hit the mark, Even if they've had tons of partners or tons of lovers, they're not actually connected. They're not actually in their bodies.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I. That's one of the most encouraging things I find about watching our clients grow. And what's possible is that I feel like, you know, they're leading conversations like that with women, and women are just. Just opening, like, flowers. Right. Like, oh, my God, it's such a relief to be with a man who can talk about this. Thank you for bringing it up. Like, I feel safer to express myself, you know, like, just positive after positive after positive of, you know, men leading in this way, which isn't what we think of as. I feel like we sort of bastardized the word leading in our culture to have it be equivalent to dominating, which is not at all the case to me. Leading is presenting yourself. Right. So leading with vulnerability, like you say, is sort of like sharing, here's where I'm at, and I'd love to know where you're at. And it's not. You don't have to be perfect to do that. It doesn't. It's not. It doesn't require that. It's more about really feeling where you are and being able to name it, like you said. And in my experience, that's extremely rare for men to be able to do so. Emotional maturity to me, feels like the basis of a strong relationship. So I'm with a man who's able to share something like that with me. I'm like, oh, wow, this is like. This is like husband material, you know, like, this is next.
Jason Lange: Totally. And this is the paradox. You know, you and I have a training for men, and one of the pieces we talk about is, you know, is it's not about confidence. Right. It's not about having to pretend like you know it all and can do it right and are perfect. It is actually about leading, the vulnerability, which means I don't know how this is going to turn out, but I'm going to bravely share my truth anyway, which the paradox is when you actually do that, that's what confidence actually is. That's what it's really about on the outside. It's just the mechanism to get there I think is way different than a lot of men we work with haven't, you know, are programmed with of. You got to be confident versus, like, you know, the. I'm feeling really nervous right now because I've never done this and I'm excited to be with you. Like, that's confidence. That's just naming your experience and being okay with whatever happens. Like, that's what it's actually about. That's what it actually looks like. And it's, you know, in my experience, the moments I've leaned into that, it. It's always energizing and it almost always seems to relax both people in the moment when reality is spoken.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Especially emotional reality. And we're going to start to wrap up here, but one thing that I do want to address in this conversation is the presence of sexual trauma. So I would estimate that about a quarter of the men that we end up working with survivors of sexual abuse. And I'm going to be doing a panel discussion on this podcast about that. But I just wanted to mention that, you know, sexual trauma is another. It's another factor in terms of like, it can lock up your nervous system or freeze your nervous system or trigger a freeze response or some kind of safety issue. And I just want to say that that is resolvable. That is not permanent. I used to work with survivors of sexual abuse, both men and women, but I just want anyone listening that has that as part of their background or history. There's nothing wrong with you. It was not your fault. And it's totally possible to heal from that and have a thriving sex life. So I don't know if you want to say anything about that just in terms of the number of men that you talk to. And I think a lot of men don't disclose that right away, but it is a big. It's a big chunk of the men that we work with.
Jason Lange: Yeah, definitely. I think it's. It's more present than. I think a lot of people realize, just culturally in general, that, yeah, a lot of men do experience sexual trauma and abuse. And that I think, because, you know, in my experience, men tend to by default, not necessarily go to a more relational place with a lot of these things, I think.
Melanie Curtin: And by that you mean telling someone or sharing?
Jason Lange: Yeah, just being able to share or tell someone. There's a, you know, we talk about this over and over and over again. The, the lone wolf mentality that our culture teaches men is a good man is just tough and figures it out and self independent. You know, the Rugged cowboy kind of archetype we're given versus like no, this stuff is actually a really big deal and massively impacts your nervous system, your quality of life, your sense of well being. And it's very much worth getting support around and realizing you're not the only one. And that, you know, does happen in our groups and happens sometimes with me and the guys, sometimes with you and the guys. And that again, just knowing that you're not alone, there's nothing wrong with you, doesn't mean you're broken. And that those patterns that oftentimes that causes in a nervous system really can be worked through and healed and opened up in a greater sense of wellbeing can be brought there that you know, once that is given some space, everything else just gets a lot easier.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, absolutely. And yeah, we're going to have a panel on that coming up in the next few weeks for those that are interested and then I would also, if you are interested in this topic, especially around Somatic therapy, there's another episode that I did with Somatic Therapist who specifically works with people with sexual trauma. So if that is in your history or you want to know more, that is a previous episode here. So as we are starting to wrap up, I'm wondering if you can just sort of share a bit about like how your sex life is now or where you went from, you know, when you lost your virginity at 26. Like how did your sort of sexual life develop?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Which makes my body available and makes me available to my partner.
Melanie Curtin: That.
Jason Lange: That's really what, you know, one of the things we do kind of hammer home in our programs is that focus on the connection and good sex follows.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I kind of want to just highlight what you said about it doesn't have to take long. Right. I'm just, you know, doing a mental Rolodex, flipping through men I've worked with. You know, there was that first man who was 29. I worked with another guy who was 26 who was a virgin, not a virgin. Three months later. After our program, there are at least two others that I can think of. But it's. It can change pretty quickly. It doesn't need to be this insurmountable mountain of shame. It can really be very work with, able and. Yeah. So just to reassure anyone out there in terms of, like, timeline, it doesn't. It really doesn't have to take a lot. And if you are interested in this kind of work, you're ready. Like, that's the indication if you're. If you're interested in doing and getting support or doing something about it. You're. You're ready. You're gonna. You're gonna get supported. You're gonna get there. So, yeah, just to kind of highlight that. So, yeah. Jason mentioned our free training. Do you want to just tell them where they can find that? If they're interested in that.
Jason Lange: Yeah, if you just go to my website, Evolutionary Men Training, you'll be able to sign up and watch a very potent, I would argue about 40 minute presentation you and I did about how inner work really is the key to having fulfilling relationships and dating experiences and awesome sex. Yep, exactly. Sa.
