Most men think they're being helpful when they rush to fix their partner's emotions, but here's what I've learned after years of working with couples: that impulse to immediately soothe, explain, or defend is actually what kills intimacy. I explored this counterintuitive truth recently on Melanie Curtin's podcast Dear Men, diving into why so many of us are genuinely afraid of our partner's emotions and what that fear costs us.
This isn't about tolerating abuse or letting anything go. It's about healthy relationships where there's real connection and some capacity to argue fairly. What I've noticed, both in my own marriage and working with men, is how often we contract when our partner gets upset with us. We immediately want to fix it, explain ourselves, or defend against the discomfort. But that's actually not what creates closeness.
The thing is, emotions just need to move. They need to be felt and expressed. And when we can welcome that full range in our partner, when we can stay present with her anger or disappointment without collapsing or getting defensive, that's often experienced as love. It's like saying: I want all of you. Don't hold back from me.
To do this, you have to get comfortable with that range in yourself first. If you're avoiding your own grief or anger, you're going to be resistant to it in your partner. That's where men's work comes in. Being in deep containers with other men where you can experience that full emotional range without the relationship stakes helps build that capacity. You get tempered by it.
Mel and I also talked about the difference between healthy storm and unhealthy patterns, how to receive feedback without personalizing everything, and why doing this work in real time matters so much more than letting things build up.
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Jason Lange: The energy just needs to move. Like, it just needs to move. There's. You don't actually even have to fix it or defend yourself, but just, like, be with it. And what I've certainly found is that the ability to just be with that and welcome that part of her is often experienced as love.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This one is a long time coming and I think can be a source of either a lot of contention within a relationship or a lot of peace and space and growth. So I'm delighted to welcome Jason back to the podcast. Thanks for practically being my co host.
Jason Lange: Hey, always glad to be here.
Melanie Curtin: Today. We're talking about emotions, and are you afraid of her emotions? Are you afraid of her emotions? In a relationship or even a dating context? Does it feel really scary when she gets angry about something or upset about something? Do you tend to go into a shame spiral, oh, my God, I did something wrong, she's pissed, I'm going to die. You know, all of the things that go along with fear of emotions, and there's a lot we're going to talk about, but I would love to just start with. With your experience, Jason, because I think you've been on a journey around this of being with feminine partners and being with their emotions. And I'm curious what your experience has been in terms of being afraid of a woman's emotions.
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. It's been a very important part of my journey, and, you know, one, like everything else, I'm just as in progress on as every other human being. So it is a journey, but it's definitely something I've noticed shifting in the last couple of years in my relationship and my experience of myself and my partner, and that is not being afraid of her emotions. Right. The title of the thing, which is something that I was more so particularly early in our relationship and some of my previous relationships of, like, when a partner would be very emotional or would be mad at me or upset about me or disappointed in me, it would often cause me to kind of contract and sometimes even think, oh, my God, then it's over. Or, like, we're done. Or like, this is totally unworkable or something like that. I would say kind of collapse on my end. And one of the things, though, that I've always adored about my wife has been her range of emotions and her expressiveness. As someone who, growing up, did not have access to that so much myself, it was really refreshing to be with a partner who was just more in that space overall. And that was always really Easy when it was positive emotions, right when it was expressions and love and adornment and just energy and more challenging when there was friction right when we were having a fight or she was upset with me or there was something we couldn't figure out in part of what my work and all the training I've done and my own journey is just even relaxing into a deeper place of not being afraid. Like if she does have a reaction or if she does get mad, that. And this is part of kind of what had me inspired to talk about this on one of our recent group calls was I also think there's something really important in that just the more comfortable we get with a range of emotions, including in ourselves, the easier it is to be present with those emotions in other people. Something I've noticed in my work, both as someone who people have guided me into my emotions and as someone who I've helped guide others into emotions, are that there's often a correlation between what I'm avoiding or uncomfortable in myself and what I'm resistant to in other people. Right. So definitely this is one I've seen for some people with like grief or sadness, like they just can't let someone be there and immediately are trying to get them out of it. Which is something a lot of us guys do. Right. You know, my thing I tell our guys often is feel her, don't fix her. We immediately want to come in and try to make it better or fix the situation or explain ourselves to relieve that emotional tension. And part of our good practice that we teach guys is that. And this is where the self work and the partner work, I see, really go hand in hand in. This is the quickest way to kind of process or digest or metabolize our own emotions is actually to go into them. Right. So instead of avoiding it or drawing it out or it's like, oh, okay, I. I'm angry, so I'm going to be angry in a healthy way and just be with that sensation in my body. And that actually tends to move it faster. The same thing can apply with a healthy partner. Of instead of trying to change her emotion or explain your way out of it or get out of the situation, there's like a way to just invite it and like welcome it from her. Welcome all of it. I want all of it. And you know, it's something I. I know my partner has appreciated of. And I think a lot of feminine partners can sometimes be quite ecstatic about the first time they experience it. Of when someone like welcomes the full range of them. Like, just welcomes it all. Like, I just. I want it all. Bring it all. I want all of it. I want all of you. Don't hold it back. Give it more. More. Like, there's something about that that can be very freeing for a partner, but to do that, like, I really have to be okay with whatever I'm inviting to come over, if that makes sense. Like, and not to be afraid of her anger or upset or sadness or grief or any of the full range of things that every human being experiences.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm reminded of my dad and the limited capacity that he has for emotional range. And I noticed that I feel contracted around that. My stomach gets tight. I've been sharing more, you know, vulnerable truths and more of my emotional range with him, but in kind of like a neat and tidy way. Like, I'm just feeling really sad about this and I don't know what to do about it. And I feel, you know, this is how I'm feeling. And he will. He visibly looks uncomfortable. He will, like, you know, kind of like, nod, and you can tell he's a little scared and just uncomfortable. Right. Like, it's uncomfortable. So it's not that comfortable for me to share because. So every time I do, it's really brave and it's, you know, neatened up, it's straightened up, it's tidied up so that I can present it in, like, a safe, clean, sanitized way so as not to trigger him and not to make him uncomfortable. And the effect that has is I feel, yeah, like, really tight in my body and just, like, just I feel uncomfortable too. Like, tight. My stomach's tight. You know, it's like I'm all tight. And anyone who knows anything about the masculine and the feminine knows that, like, the tight feminine, it's like, it's not flowing. Like, like things are not flowing. She's not going to get wet that way. It's like the tight feminine is just like, ugh. Like, it doesn't feel that good, you know, I don't think the tight masculine is that comfortable either. Right. Tight in any human being is. There's not a lot of flow happening. And when I imagine what you're describing of a man who actually has the capacity, is grounded and can hold a lot because he's touched these places in himself and he's got his two feet on the ground and he's with me and he's like, bring it. What else you got? Like, because I'm like, I'm pissed. I'm so Mad about this. I felt so dropped. He's like, tell me more. What was that? Like? I'm like, that's like a fucking revelation. Like, I can't even. Like, I almost have trouble believing that that's real. I don't, because I know men like you, but it's like, that would. It's basically the polar opposite, because everything about my dad's body language and actual language, which is nothing, right? Like, no, I don't get anything back, right? Like, I get very little back. Everything about him in that moment says, I don't really want to do this. I don't really want to hear this. I don't really want you to be upset at all. I don't. I don't want this. And so I'm trying to contort myself into a box to, like, make him feel better when there is still a reason I'm upset something happened or I'm sad or I'm grieving or I'm upset about something. So I not only have to handle it myself, but now I feel like I also have to caretake him. And I think that's a pattern that happens frequently in. In romantic relationships. And I think this is a good sort of segue to say. Big emotional expression can be really scary for a lot of people. Big emotional expression can be really scary for a lot of people, especially if you came from a chaotic home. If you came from a home where big emotional expression happened and it was chaotic, it was volatile, it was unpredictable, it was associated with violence, it was followed up by you getting punished or you being lashed out at. Right. Like a parent was upset about something and they lashed out at you, which really had nothing to do with you. But your little kid mind can't distinguish that. It's just, mommy got mad and I got harmed, you know, Like, I guess I just want to validate that there's a reason that her emotions are scary for you. There's a reason her emotions are scary. If that's true for you, beyond just you, you know, not wanting to make someone upset. Like, a lot of people have genuine trauma around big emotional women, women with big emotions. Because for some people, mom or dad was embodying that in an unhealthy way way. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that. Probably not from your own personal experience, but from the men we've worked with. Like, what. What is that like for men that have that kind of trauma?
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. Um, I mean, I can speak from it a little in, you know, the masculine Lineage in my family definitely was abusive alcoholic. Like it goes back. It morphed enlightened with my dad. But he, you know, he got very angry and yelled a lot in life. So that's something I've experienced. But I think, yeah, this is super important to double click underline that. I think this episode goes really well with two other episodes you have that if guys haven't checked out. I would suggest checking out the Walking on Eggshells episode. My wife Violet, and then the episode the three of us did around Storm versus abuse. Because what we're talking about today specifically is Healthy Storm. And so Healthy Storm takes a certain amount of agreement and safety and relationship and even to some extent, linguistic capacity for, like, how to argue healthily or share emotions and own our experience. Things we've talked about that are really important. This is not about anything she does is okay. And I just have to hold space for that. That's not the piece we're talking about. This is more, okay, we've got connection, we've got some kind of healthy bond here to some capacity. And we kind of know how to fight fair to some extent. And it's from that place that what I'm talking about here is one of the things we can really do. So if you're a guy out there and you're wanting to be with a really conscious, radiant, embodied woman, one of the things you can do to kind of stand out, so to speak, the crowd of other men is develop this capacity now that if you come from a traumatic background and have trauma in your history, you gotta go there first in very safe containers and very safe environments with skilled professionals to learn to work that part of your nervous system and see what's even impossible there. For. For some people, that range of what's possible is. Is going to be more limited. It's just the truth. There may be certain, like, like. Like if you had a broken limb, it just might not ever quite heal. The same way that you just might need to be with a partner soon as it's a little more chill. That's just part of it. But if you are at a place or you can get to a place in your healing where you feel a little bit more comfortable and do have the capacity to step into that, which includes, like I said, stepping into these places in ourselves, like knowing what our grief is like knowing what our sadness is like knowing what our anger is like knowing what our feelings of abandonment are like, like experiencing that all in our body firsthand. Like really being with that as you do that one of the things that can become available to you and certainly is the edge I'm working in my life is then not being afraid of when it comes up. Right. That's the piece I'm talking about specifically with a feminine partner of. Ah, okay. There's some. There's something here. And I can either try to minimize it, fix it, avoid it, you know, strategies a lot of us guys use, or I can welcome it and invite all of it in, all of her. And to do that, I have to have a certain capacity and groundedness and ability to stay connected to my breath and my safety and know my limits at the same time. That doesn't. Like, again, it's not. Doesn't mean take everything, but to know that not all the time, but a lot of the time for partners who are. Have done some work or taken some responsibility or are healthy enough, the energy just needs to move. Like, it just needs to move. There's. You don't actually even have to fix it or defend yourself, but just, like, be with it. And what I've certainly found is that the ability to just be with that and welcome that part of her is often experienced as love. Like, when we can relate, like, no, I want all of it. I want all of you. Don't hide that from me. Give me the truth of your heart. Give me the truth of your heart. Give me the truth of your heart. And when I can hold, that doesn't mean I'm not like, upset or hurting, like, oh, my God, I really hurt her, or I feel like shit, or, you know, I may be having my own reaction and I want to have. Allow that to be true too.
Melanie Curtin: But.
Jason Lange: But when I can just stay present, like, stay connected in that, it can be a really powerful experience between partners, and it can be a really important shift for some guys. Now we talk a lot about masculine and feminine dynamics on the show. And the masculine part of any of us wants peace, wants no tension. Right? That's so a large. A lot of the time, the masculine, our. Our mode is. I don't want to get into that because that's not peace. That's tension. That's friction. That's like engagement energy. But good masculine leadership in a relationship is actually the quickest way to peace is often again to just go in and welcome it because it's not going to last forever. If it does last forever or keeps coming back to the same thing or history keeps getting thrown in your face, that's more. Some of those other situations we're talking about that are Going to be less healthy expressions. And that's probably something you need to work out more with a skilled counselor or therapist to see really what's possible in relationship. But oftentimes what I found in these healthy capacities is when we just go into. Doesn't last forever. Right. It's just like a rainstorm.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Just ride it out. And then on the other side, we're often feel. You know, my partner and I often feel much closer to each other, even if it was vulnerable, even if one of us is like, oh, my God, I can't believe I just shared that. Or like, like, this is really hard for me to share that I'm actually really mad at you or something like that. But always when the other person's still there on the other side, there's like a deepening trust. Like, oh, I don't have to hold all that back or manage all that. Like, what you were sharing, I think, is, you know, guys, what Mel shared is like, rewind and listen to that. Because every time if you're in a relationship and a woman's having that experience, she's having to shut down the flow of her heart and her emotions, which means she's like putting her masculine on to protect herself.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: Because she doesn't trust that you can. She can just surrender. And that has an energetic cost. Doesn't mean you have to do it all the time. Doesn't mean there's not unhealthy versions of that. But know that that is an actual thing a lot of women have learned to have to do. Because men were not comfortable holding their emotions, did not welcome them or gaslit them about situation. There's all kinds of ways guys will avoid that full spectrum of emotions in the feminine. And, you know, sometimes we'll have guys we work with who, you know, and I get it. Again, we're the masculine. We want peace. Secretly hope that that's all gonna stop. But to just know that, yeah, that's kind of part of the game of being in the relationship with a feminine woman or a feminine partner of any kind. It's just that there's gonna be change, there's gonna be a range, there's gonna be ups and downs. And instead of trying to get rid of that, it's like, okay, let's learn to surf together. Like, let's invite that. Let's use this as a way to get closer to each other.
Melanie Curtin: It kind of reminds me of. I was born on St. Thomas in the U.S. virgin Islands, and we had hurricanes. That was part of my life Growing up, and I remember when we would prep for hurricanes, part of the strength of our building, the building that we lived in, was that there were no walls through the middle of it. So there was a staircase, and it was all metal, but it was open. So when the wind would come, there wasn't a wall for it to push against. It would just flow through the building. And of course, there were parts that had. But even in our bathroom, the top half of our bathroom was grill. So it. So in hurricanes, the wind would blow through the grill, and it actually had the building be stronger because there wasn't all of that force that it was resisting. And it feels that way of, you know, in its small moments. You know, I'm picturing, like, a couple out at dinner, and he looks at another woman, and she. And her feelings are hurt, and she shuts down, and he's like, what are you, moody again? Like, that's not welcoming of emotion. For example. It's like, hey, it feels like something's going on. What's. What's up in that moment. That's the moment where she can say, I'm really embarrassed. It's so small. Like, I just. I feel really stupid about it. It's like, well, I want to know, you know, what happened. Like, you looked at that woman, and my feelings were hurt. Like, oh, I hear you like being with it. And there's a cooperative effect in that exchange because there's her shutdown, there's him being attuned enough to notice it and ask about it, and her willingness to actually show her heart. And I think that's the part that, you know, I'm remembering a guy friend of mine where we. It was like New Year's Eve, and we were all going around sharing or something, and I felt like he wasn't taking it seriously. And I felt really, like, shut down because I was sort of leading this circle or something. He wasn't taking it seriously. And I held onto this for, like, a week. And I started, like, acting different around him. And I remember going into his room and being like, listen, I. I've been weird with you for, like, a week because this little thing happened on New Year's Eve, and I want to tell you about it, but I'm a little scared. And I said, this is so small. This is so small. But, like, I just felt like you were, like, not taking it seriously. And I felt kind of, like, bad. And he was like. He kind of got defensive. Like, he kind of got defensive. He was like, well, no, like, that wasn't that big a deal or. I don't remember what he said. What I remember was I shrank. That's what I remember. I remember shrinking. I remember feeling small and, like, vulnerable and like, whoa. Like, that was a bad experience. I was like, I don't know that I would tell him again if my feelings were hurt. It was such a. Such a classic moment, in a way, because it was like, that was so scary and vulnerable for me to even go into his room and be like, hey, I've been acting weird around you, and I wanted you to know why and, like, kind of, like, masculine up to, like, share. Because I was like, I don't really want to live like this. Like, I. We've had a good friendship so far, and I really like being your friend, so. But that moment, I was like, man, this is why people don't share. Because that was so hard for me to say, because exactly what you said, it's like, I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed. I was like, I shouldn't feel this way. I shouldn't have gotten my feelings hurt. I shouldn't have felt this way. Which is silly in the end, because we can't really control emotions. We can control what we do with them. We can control how we express them, but we can't control our feelings getting hurt. It's a thing that happens in our bodies. It's. It's a trigger point. Something about that moment had me feel ignored or whatever. It was the original moment at the party. And so I feel like, in that, you know, welcoming of emotions, like, are you scared of her emotions? I think for a lot of men, it's like they're scared of being criticized. I'm scared of her emotions because I'm scared that she's saying, you're bad. You did something bad. You did something wrong. And I think that's what that man heard in that moment. What he heard was, you fucked it up. You fucked it up on New Year's Eve. Just like you always fuck it up, or whatever he was told as a kid. I don't know what the hell it was, but it's like the interpreter, right? It's like, what I said was, my feelings were hurt about this thing. And what he heard was, you're a bad kid. You're bad, and what you did was bad, which is not what I said. And so I think that's a common dance of, like, there's what I'm sharing, and then there's how you're interpreting it. And I think a lot of men immediately interpret Emotions especially, I'm disappointed, I'm angry, I'm upset as I'm bad.
Jason Lange: And when I did something wrong or.
Melanie Curtin: I'm not good enough, and therefore I'm. Somehow it usually gets back to like, I'm bad.
Jason Lange: Oh, my God, this is never going to work. And this whole thing's over. And, you know, certainly I still have to fight the tendency to fix or deflect or, like, explain. Explain why I didn't mean to, you know, oh, I didn't mean to hurt you. Which often gets. Is exactly kind of what you experience with that guy. Which actually isn't the point of the share. It's like, it's no acknowledging that you were hurt. Right. It's like, oh, yeah, wow, totally. That's so. I'm so sorry you felt that way. Like, I can totally see how that would happen. You know, Then after there's some resonance there, you can kind of share more about your experience or what your intention was or whatever that thing is. I mean, that's a fierce one. I have to fight myself. But that. Yeah. Both partners can trigger each other so much in these types of situations, which is why it's important to be doing this work in healthy ways on your own, independently, and not just in the relationship. Therapists with counselors, with coaches with men's groups to get more comfortable with that. All those things also will help you distinguish between the difference between the unhealthy and. And the healthy. Right. If something keeps happening and you share it with your group, people can clue in pretty fast, like, oh, actually, that does not sound good. Or that does not sound right.
Melanie Curtin: Like, if a woman keeps saying, well, you know, I mean, can you give an example of that? Because you've been.
Jason Lange: Oh, you never. X. Okay.
Melanie Curtin: You never listen.
Jason Lange: You never. One thing, right?
Melanie Curtin: That would.
Jason Lange: That would be one thing. Or you always. Right when it becomes these.
Melanie Curtin: Like, you're always on your phone. Never listen. You're always on your phone.
Jason Lange: Those things are hard. Um, the other things is, you know, I've talked about before to notice of when it's oriented from the past versus the present. So when we're being attacked for things that already happened over and over and over.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. But.
Jason Lange: But. But I still remember you left me there and you never showed up or you dropped the thing or you told her X. And if that keeps coming back, that. That's. That's really. It's kind of unwinnable in a lot.
Melanie Curtin: Of ways because that's different from. I feel really missed right now.
Jason Lange: Yes. The more in the present it is the better. And this is an important one for I think for, well, for all your listeners, but feminine partners as well. For a healthy, for healthy masculine, you know, which I like to try to be and hope a lot of our men end up being. It's much easier for us to be with it real time in the moment. So when it's actually happening right now, it's much easier for me to, to be with it. Then it's much harder if you come to me and it already happened because it's kind of like, well, what do I like it. It's just a much harder energy to be with versus there's something about in the moment I like still have a chance to course correct. Right. Like that's, that's actually where it can be your gift to me to reveal that in the moment. Oh fuck, you're right. I've totally been on my phone. Like I haven't been paying attention to you. I'm so sorry. I can see you're right. And then I get to like show up, kind of do my thing in the moment and kind of course correct. And we get to co create that I think is a super important thing. So tends to be the more in the moment this can be, which is a practice for both partners, I have found the healthier it can be and the more it prevents the other thing. You know, I've seen in couples I've worked with, I know you've seen in some couples you've worked with is the, the build up. Yeah, yeah, there's just this like building up. So it's like suddenly I forgot to get you those Q tips at the store and it's an explosion. But it's not right. It's not just about the Q tips. It's about all those times before that that there was a withholding of hurt and loss of trust and it like all boils up into that. And then it's this just volcano that's really hard for either partner to orient to and orient from. So the more we can in the real, real time process the stuff and not be afraid and just go into it like, wow, you're mad at me or you're disappointed or sometimes this is just, you know, not being afraid of her emotions too is about telling the truth. Just wow, she asked me this thing. I'm going to tell her what actually happened. Right. Instead of kind of sliding my way around it. But yeah, here's this thing. I did this thing. You're right, I did that. And again, same thing. The more we can move that towards real time, the less it'll just accumulate or fester. I don't know. Quite the right word for it. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Because I spent.
Jason Lange: But the more free both partners are.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Because then I'm not carrying all this baggage of the past into the moment with you. I'm just here with you in the moment right now. And it's just. It's an incredible capacity to develop. And it's freeing for both partners, I think, because it's also when, you know, a good. The healthiest version of, you know, strong, masculine leadership in a lot of ways is when we're not afraid, so to speak. When we're more loose and comfortable and present in our body, there's more we can do. Right. It's. You can imagine like someone in a keto artist versus, like, someone totally locked up. Like, there's not. The energy just comes and you're like, ah. And it hits you versus, like, oh, I can move it, or I can redirect it, or I can play with it. I can bring in a little humor here, and suddenly the whole situation can change. But I'm working with what is actually there in the moment. I'm not trying to get rid of it. I'm, like, inviting that energy in. And, um, that can be a really just powerful place to kind of work from. And it's a skill. It's a capacity. You know, sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't do it. Sometimes I mess it up, sometimes I don't. But it's something we're committed to, at least in my relationship, that we want to get better at. And I am getting more comfortable with it. And I can see it relaxes my partner. Right. Because then she doesn't have to be holding a part of that. Just like, oh, okay, I can get mad at him.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. I've realized that I feel like in a partnership, in a relationship, the only people I truly trust are the ones that I can get mad at. And I can count on one hand the number of people in my life I feel like I can get mad at. Because I feel like for the others, I'm like, if I get mad at them, they will withdraw. They will withdraw. Like, they will either withdraw in the moment or over time, but they will leave. And I don't think I'm wrong about some of them. Like, I might be wrong about others. I'm like, I'm pretty attuned. I think. I know. You know, anyway. And I want to go back to what you said about how a Man gets there. How does he get there? How does he become not afraid? Because so many men are afraid. And pretending you're not afraid, definitely not going to help. Yeah, like owning, like. Yeah, I'm afraid of that. Of emotional moments and, you know, highly emotional partners. How does a man expand his capacity in the way that you're describing? Because I have some thoughts, but I'd be curious. You know, in your journey.
Jason Lange: Yeah, you gotta go there yourself. So first and foremost, you gotta know every corner of your emotional body and your experiences and what you avoid in yourself, what you're uncomfortable in yourself. So going there in skilled containers with safe leadership is super important. So just getting more in touch with your emotions, not being afraid of your emotions. Right. That's step one. For some guys, that's a big deal. Other guys, you know, that's more on tap. So it's a little different for everyone. The other thing I would say is particularly that the unique energy of, like. Yeah, you know, I think this was part of what we were talking about on a call that kind of inspired. This was like. There's almost like an excitement, like a welcoming, like a wanting, like, come on, you know, like, calling the bull on, like, let's do this. And for me, the first place I've ever experienced that and where. I mean, I just relish that the most, which then makes it easier to bring that into relationship, is when I'm doing deep work with other men. And there is no. You know, we're not in an intimate relationship, so there's no, like, there's. There's none of that extra stuff added on. So I get to just be with the experience of when a man is fully bringing it and expressing himself and when he's not and getting to feel the difference and getting the sense of how much more free we both are. When both people play full out, there's like a. Afterwards, there's like, fuck, yeah, man, you really went for it. Like. Like, usually, you know, doing that kind of work, a lot of times, you know, most guys will be like, I could have taken more. Like, you bring more of that anger, more of that rage, more of that sadness, more of that grief. And there's like a. Just a beautiful kind of bonding thing I've certainly gone through with other men. And they've welcomed it from me. I've welcomed it from then. And there's literally just kind of being in the heat of that and not totally personalizing it kind of develops a little bit of capacity, at least in me, that then makes it easier to bring into somewhere where I do really care about the container and the arrangement and the feelings and the, you know, the commitment we have to each other. So. But it's almost like I'm kind of tempered, you know, like steel's tempered in fire. There's, like, a little bit of getting tempered in those. Those big emotions and not being afraid of them and seeing how much space there can be for both people on the other side and knowing that's something I want to bring to my partner and to myself.
Melanie Curtin: Well, what's interesting about what you're describing is, you know, let's say you're at a men's. At a shadow weekend, or you're with a man and he's expressing rage about his alcoholic dad and all this shit that he's never been able to say. And he's expressing. And you're like, bring it even more. Bring all. Bring all of it. Bring all of it. He's expressing this very real thing for him, and you're receiving it, and it has nothing to do with you. This has been my experience repeatedly with men in relationship. When I'm upset about work or I'm enraged because of something my girlfriend did, or I'm, you know, I'm upset, he can handle my upset. He can welcome my emotion, as long as it's not about him. Soon as it's something he did, like, I felt really dropped when you didn't call me, he gets defensive, he shuts down. He pulls all of these other maneuvers that it becomes really confusing to sort through because he has been there so much for me in the past. I'm like, this is really confusing. You have been able to handle my emotion, but as soon as it's about him, it's a totally different ball game. And what you're describing is. And some of what you're describing, I would imagine, does have to do with the group. If you're in a men's group that's solid and trusted, shit's gonna come up within the men's group. Like, a guy's gonna be pissed at another guy. Like, you know, that's super valuable because that tempers you in a different way. Right? Which is more what I'm talking about, which is. And this is kind of where I want to, you know, talk about at the moment is shame. Because I think that there's a shame response that happens when it's like, you said this thing and I felt shut down. And then immediately the guy's like, well, I didn't mean it that way. It's like all of this stuff happens around that instead of like, oh, I can see how that, yeah, I can see how that you would have felt shut down there or whatever the non defensive maneuver is. And that feels important in what I have experienced is distinguishing between a man can hold my emotions over here, but as soon as it's about him, there's a shit, there's an extra level of shame that's attached that makes it more complex.
Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's super, super valid and important and the capacity related to this. So the capacity to receive feedback is the masculine is one of the deepest things you can develop to take feedback, to open hearted, receive it, receive it and to just receive it again. Deep men's work is an amazing place to do that where men will tell you, I see you hitting the mark here and here's where I do not see you hitting the mark or here's shit you need to cut out, cut that shit out, right? And there's like, oh, I can, I can. But then there's also you get to a point where like, fuck, you're right, you're right, I don't want to do that anymore. And that again starts to kind of develop a certain capacity to take that that I think you can bring back into a relationship. And I do think it's easier to develop that first. You know, I'm obviously a men's group guy, so I'm biased to develop that first with, with other masculine men that I can be mad at you, I can give you feedback or criticism and I can still love the fuck out of you, I hope. And in fact my criticism can be sourced in that love. I love you so much and I see you doing this thing and it's killing me and it's preventing us from being closer or preventing me from trusting you. And I love you too much to not say anything, right? Like that starts to develop something like that, that a good partnership with a feminine partner, part of that's going to be there, right? She's mad at you because she wants to trust you, she wants to open her heart to you, she wants to surrender to you. And it's like, hey, here I am. And then you don't catch her. Like that's pretty fucking damaging and scary. So, you know, but if you drop her a couple times, which we're all going to, you know, there's like, fuck. But I'm still committed, still committed to catching you. And I want to get better at this. And you're right. And it also develops a certain Capacity to. Just because someone gives you feedback doesn't mean it's true. Right. That's again, where being in a group, being in a healing container of like, I can receive all that. And I agree with this. And I don't agree with that. Right. There's a way to be in relationship with that. That's like, yeah, no, I can see that that's your truth. And that's not my experience. Right. There's some guys developing that. That her emotions are not all of reality. It's like a liberating thing in its. In itself. Right. Actually, yeah, I worked with my guys around this and no, I feel really solid. Like how I'm showing up in this part of our life and I'm not gonna, you know, shy away from that. Like I'm okay with that. But it just takes practice. It really does. So, you know, it takes practices we teach guys in our program. It takes going deep with other men. It takes being. It takes having buy in from a partner. You can talk about some of these things, about how we handle disagreements or emotions so that we're kind of on the same page when those things happen. So, you know, this isn't for every relationship necessarily. It's not for a first date necessarily unless you're really vibing and you feel, you know, you can go there. That's possible on dates. But it is, it's something. You know, the last thing I'll say is I think this is one of the most powerful ways me and my partner have built trust in relationship. It's her being able to give me feedback or being able to share the range of her emotions or heart. And I couldn't always not be afraid of it or collapse. Did that tons when we first met. Totally collapsed, totally defended, totally whatever. But over time, my capacity to increase has increased her trust of me. It's like, oh, I can. I don't. This is stuff that's really hard for me, but I can just share it with you and we can deal with that. And the fact that we can move through that in itself is the much deeper relaxation that starts to happen. Because then it's like it reifies or like, oh, we don't have to be afraid of these things because we know how to move through these things. So it actually relaxes the whole process over time. It makes it all easier.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's a big deal because what you're describing is repair. And it seems to me that in most family systems there is no repair. There's either rift or rupture. And then just time passes and we just pretend it didn't happen or there's some kind of weird dance around it. But there's not actually repair. So most of us have never experienced that. We've never actually gone through something hard, shared something hard, had the other person listen, actually hear us, and then still be connected. It's like either you stop being connected to people, or you just slowly shut off parts of yourself, which isn't what we're talking about. Like. Yeah, what you're describing is it's like a new way of relating for. Most people that I know and have worked with did not have healthy repair modeled for them in their homes. It was just not there. It wasn't there. So it's genuinely a new thing. And there's a level of safety and trust that is established when we can get to the other side of something. And it's like. To your point, it's like every time that happens, it's strengthening that bond because it's like, oh, wow, maybe we're not gonna be disconnected forever. Oh, maybe we're not going to be disconnected forever. I think that fear is always there of, like, if I bring my heart and I piss him off, he's going to leave or she's going to engulf me and I'm going to die or whatever. The. The little.
Jason Lange: She's mad at me right now, so. She's always going to be mad.
Melanie Curtin: She's always going to be mad at me. Yeah, exactly. It's like, that takes time to recover from. That takes time to believe there's another path. Even when you've repaired six times, like, it's maybe going to take 60 times before your body is actually like, okay, I truly trust that I don't have to be perfect with this person. I trust that we will be able to do this. That's a big deal and not something that happens quickly.
Jason Lange: To me, that's true love built. Right. It's. It's not the falling in love. It's something we've, like, weaved. Like, we're literally weaving a connection between us, so every tension that we mend actually weaves it stronger. Like, we become closer in that process. And that. That does take time. That takes commitment, and that takes space for mistakes on both sides.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I really. I really liked what you said about, you know, catching her. And it's like, it's quite damaging when you drop her. And I had a recent experience of this where I was. I, like, had a. I've been having lots of realizations. About my past and all this stuff. And I was sharing with a guy friend and felt like, really dropped in this moment when I was really vulnerable. I was like, I really needed him to be attuned to that moment and give me a little bit of comfort. And instead, he was kind of checked out. Like, he was physically present but not emotionally present, which is kind of upsetting for me. Like, really upsetting. And I was in a really vulnerable state. I think if I had been in a more of a. An adult state in that moment, it would have been different, but I was in, like, kind of like a childlike state anyway. It was very damaging. It was very damaging. And I, when I came out of it and I did a bunch of self care and I, you know, regulated and did all these things, went to my somatic therapist when I came back. You know, one thing I reflected was, like, I was like, I don't think that you've touched that place in yourself. And so I don't trust you to be able to hold me in that place. And, you know, this is just a friend of mine. This is a guy friend. This isn't my partner. But it occurred to me, like, that felt like such a moment of being dropped that everything in me was like, never trust this person again with these vulnerable parts of you. And I. I think there's a balance there between, like, I'm never going to trust you again, and, like, shoving someone away in, like, a reactive place versus, wow, you really just showed me your capacity. Like, you. This is not a place where you've got this handled yet. Therefore, you are genuinely not trustworthy. There are other people who are trustworthy in my life. Like, I'm never. I'm not. Like, I'm never gonna trust anyone again. No one can handle me. That's not what I'm talking about. But I do think that, you know, to your point, Jason, especially since we live in a patriarchal culture that doesn't allow boys to be human beings. You know, the message in our culture is, like, boys aren't allowed to be human beings. You have to cut out, cut off your heart, cut off, like, your empathy, cut off your compassion. Like, if you want to be a quote, unquote, real man in the patriarchy, you can't be a full human being. And that is very damaging to men. And so I feel like their capacity for emotional development is super stunted in this way that they've been told makes them a real man. But then they get into a relationship and it's damaging. It's Literally damaging to their partner. So I think there's a necessity to graduate beyond the stupid patriarchy that is just so damaging to both. Both sexes and really all genders, because then there's all of the other genders that are excluded in a binary system. Like, you're either this or you're that. Like, actually, it's a lot more complicated than that. There's a lot more shades in there of beauty, but, you know, really owning, like, yeah, I need to get literate around my emotions. I need to be comfortable here. I'm going to invest in somatic therapy, in coaching, in courses, in whatever it takes, because I want this and I want to be a healthy man in relationship. And, you know, to your point, it's like, this isn't just about how you show up for her. It's about your emotional landscape. Can you touch those places in yourself? Do you know what your grief feels like? Because you aren't going to be able to hold me in mine if you can't hold you in yours totally.
Jason Lange: If I'm afraid of mine, I'm going to avoid yours. It's just. I've seen it time and time again because being with it and you will trigger it, right? We're resonant as humans. So if I want to be with you in your grief, I have to be feeling grief in my nervous system. And if I have a whole pocket of that that I haven't touched, that's going to be like, oh, fuck, there's a grenade there. I can't do that. I got to avoid. I got to leave. I got to bounce. I got to. What? So, again, one of the most powerful things you can do as a man is to go into all that, take responsibility, explore that in yourself. And then if you want to go boss level, guys, right, Boss level. There's. There's taking responsibility for the masculine as well. Oh, I didn't drop you. I wasn't the one that dropped you in those previous relationships. But I'm going to be responsible for catching you now in the way those men didn't. So I'm not going to say you were wrong or. Why do you always do that? There's. I know why that happened. You had that experience where you weren't caught. And instead of making that not about me, that's, oh, that's your shit you got to deal with. There's. There's a version of I'm going to still try to catch you and take responsibility for what those other men couldn't do. That's like A deep, deep level that, you know, I would say only in third stage kind of relationships, both partners are doing the work you want to turn towards, but it is possible. Um, and then the other thing I'll. I'll just say, guys, is, you know, one of my first men's coaches, Trip Linear, worked with me and, you know, he was the first guy that just taught me that simple thing is just like it's one pipe. There's just one emotional pipe. So if you clamp down on one, you're clamping down on all of them. So if I don't want to feel sad, I'm actually limiting my highs. Right. Like, these things are super related. And so if you're wanting a highly feminine, emotional, expressive, in her body moving, energetic woman, but you don't want her to have emotions, you're not going to find that. You're just not going to find it. If you want that, you have to be open to the whole pipe. Right. Sometimes she's going to be sad, sometimes she's going to be mad, sometimes it's going to be hard, sometimes it's going to be easy, sometimes it's going to be soft, Sometimes all that different stuff that. So if you're desiring that in a partner, know that you got to welcome all of it. Because if you're not welcoming all of it, she can't relax into that. And so you're going to be getting. You're just going to have a different experience or you're going to keep attracting a different type of woman who doesn't feel safe with you and keeps a part of herself shut down. And you're going to wonder why you're not attracted to her, why you lose interest or all these different things. But the more you can accept all that and the more she feels safe in that, the more she'll give you that full range and the more, you know, I will say you're likely to be nourished.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. Including sexually, I think 100%. Yeah, we're.
Jason Lange: I mean, we could have a whole conversation totally around really important, this capacity in sex. Totally.
Melanie Curtin: The version of me that I am around a man where I don't feel safe to express myself is much smaller. And I'm the same woman. I'm technically the same woman, but that guy's not getting the same woman. As a fully, radiantly expressed, joyous, you know, where I feel. When I feel like I can be angry and sad and that's safe, you can bet that I'm gonna be radiantly, abundantly happy and expressed and joyful and want to give him a blowjob. Like, you know, it's like, oh, my God, I'm so free. Look at how free I am. Look at my feminine. This is so exciting because I got to do difficulty with you and you didn't fucking leave. You actually showed up and you were really present. You were there, not just physically in the room, but checked out, like, genuinely there. Like, that's. That's going to have an effect on the other side. There's a ton of energy that's, you know, bound up, that gets to be expressed and released in a, you know, feminine way. So, yeah, as we wrap up, if you are interested in our work with me and Jason, you can go and take our free training, which is a really good way of going deeper than the podcast. If you've been listening for a while and wanting to go a little bit.
Jason Lange: Deeper, you can go to Evolutionary Men Slash Training.
Melanie Curtin: Evolutionary Men Slash Training.
