144: Should you stay together for the kids? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: What love looked like or felt like energetically in the room right between two people, like, what connection looked like. I just. I didn't see what affection looked like, what flirting looked like. So as I got into high school, you know, part of my story, most people that listen to this know, it was just. It was terror for me.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This one is a long time coming. You know, glad to have you back, Jason, to be discussing this with, because we've both noticed that a lot of the men that come into our program have struggled with this question and grappled with it over the course of the program. And it also comes up, I think, a lot in the calls that you've done with men over the course of the years, Jason. So we're going to dive right in, and the question is, should you stay together for the kids? And we're going to look at this in sort of two ways. One is the sort of your experience, possibly, if you're listening to this, if you were a kid whose parents may maybe stayed together, quote, unquote, for you, right. That should you stay together for the kids? And they made the choice, yes, I should stay together for the kids. And then we'll look at if you have kids, what that choice is like for you. So, yeah, Jason, I'm curious if you could just outline a little bit of what is this question? When men are coming to you with it, what are they grappling with in terms of should I stay. Should I stay together with my partner for the kids?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think for a lot of the men I've talked to, and then definitely some of the men we've worked with, you know, by the time they're coming to us, oftentimes they've tried things. Right. It's the type of men we tend to work with aren't guys who just, oh, my God, there's a problem, I don't know how to fix it. I've never tried anything, um, like that. Oftentimes, these are men who have been in relationships for, you know, at least a couple years, sometimes long enough to have, have kids, and really, really tried to make it work. Right. Oftentimes been in therapy themselves, maybe tried couples therapy, done workshops, done different things, and the connection just still isn't there. Connection meaning sometimes emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, any kind of intimacy sometimes. So we have men, you know, men I've talked to, that this is one of the most significant challenges that they wrestle with, of what do I do? Right? What do I do? I'm I'm miserable. My partner's miserable. But we want to create the best environment we can for our kids, and to a shocking extent, at least with the type of men we work with. Oftentimes you may hear my kid in the background. Oftentimes they'll land on the choice of, okay, I'm going to put my relationship below the priority of my children is the choice they're often leaning into or have made for a long time until maybe it just isn't working anymore. And that's when we'll often start to engage with them or they'll realize, I got to do something different here.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's an interesting question, right? Because on the one hand, there's the desire to, like you said, prioritize the kids and prioritize their, let's say, mental health. Right. And one of the issues with that is that what you're role modeling is significant in the child's life in terms of their future prospects when it comes to relationships. So if you're modeling a relationship where there's a lot of fighting and there's conflict or there's a lot of passive aggression and you can kind of feel the tension, but no one's really talking about the underlying issue, or you're modeling a kind of cold, cold environment where there's just not a lot of affection, there's not a lot of care between the parents. I'm not talking about between the parents with the child or children. I'm talking about between the parents. What the kids are seeing and absorbing about romantic relationship and about family is embodied by the relationship between mom and dad. So if mom and dad are fighting a lot, or again, if there's sort of unspoken tension, children are really good at picking up on that. And so to them, that's what relationship then becomes and what it means to them. And I think that's something that a lot of men aren't really aware of. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that in terms of the guys you've spoken to. Is that on their mind when it comes to staying together?

Jason Lange: For the kids, usually not. So I think that's such an important point in that. Right. Neither situation is ideal, Right. If you've started with a partner and had kids, right. We'd all love for it to just work out and have that stability and that love and intimacy. But I think the point you're bringing up is there's a cost either way, right? So there is a cost if you split up in terms of some of the Continuity and maybe initial stability, we would say, with kids. And that comes with challenges. You know, I'm from a household where my parents. Parents split up and holidays and, you know, balancing time with different parents and stuff can. It's a source of stress, Right. It's something to deal with. It's a cost. But there is the cost on the other side that you're speaking to that a lot of men I've talked to and some of the ones that have come through our program don't tend to think about as much and don't tend to value as much because oftentimes they themselves were raised in households where maybe that passion or intimacy wasn't so much there, but the stability was there. And then, you know, part of our work together is often uncovering like, wow, I never saw that role modeled in my parents. Right. I never knew what passionate love looked like or what that kind of friendly intimacy and vitality between parents might be in the context of a family. And so that. That realization that there is a cost. Right. What I am modeling to my kids is very significant. So. Right. Even if I do stay in it for the stability, children are extraordinarily perceptive and sensitive in absorbing all the energetics and dynamics. So they will likely, at the very least, absorb, oh, relationship. Something you just kind of do to support each other. It's not about kissing or passion or love or flirting. Right. And many of us grew up not seeing that and then wonder why we struggle with it as we become teenagers and men. And just noticing that. Right. And noticing that that same impulse of, well, my needs don't matter. Right. Like, and then I'm kind of shut down. Maybe as a dad, in some ways that gets absorbed. Right. We absorb that as men in terms of this isn't working, or maybe I'm trying to make it work, but it's so clearly not working. But I feel like I have to stay in it. Right. That that teaches us an energetic as well, that, no, wow. No matter how dysfunctional it gets, I have to stay in it because my parents did that and they loved each other for, you know, 60 years or 70 years or something like that, even though that love maybe wasn't quite what we. We thought. But I think that realization that there is a cost, Right. And there's also a benefit, you know, so the benefit might be if you can make it work with your partner. Yeah. There's that continuity of experience. There's that stability. The benefit, though, of doing your best. And I'm not saying this is easy. It can be excruciating and takes a lot of structure and really a willingness to show up and have some difficult conversations and work with mediators to figure out how things will go. But the benefit can be by the time they're hopefully teenagers, maybe even later, they get to see their parent in love, like actually with a new partner, where that connection is there and that vitality is there, and they're. They're happy. Right. There's something really significant, I think, about that we tend to discount as parents about the importance of our children seeing us fulfilled. Right. And that that can be a huge benefit to taking that plunge in reorienting the relationship.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. There's several important things that you're talking about here. And one thing that is showing up for me in this conversation is healthy boundaries and role modeling. Healthy boundaries. Because if you're with a partner who's abusive, and I'm talking about emotionally abusive or verbally abusive or physically abusive, and you're staying in that relationship, your role modeling, a lack of healthy boundaries, like you're showing your child that this. That you don't have boundaries, that you haven't figured out boundaries. Boundaries are not in your wheelhouse. And that will absolutely be absorbed by your children, your child or children. And, you know, to your point, it's not easy to split up. It's not easy, especially if you're in a marriage, especially if you're cohabitating, especially if there's finances involved. And, you know, it's. There's a lot to do when you're uncoupling or decoupling. But to your point, you know, I. I think it's really interesting that word, Stability. Right. So I am the product of two parents who never got married. My parents split up when I was three. Thank God. They split up when I was three. I am grateful every time I think about it. And the reason I say that is that knowing my parents, knowing each of each parent individually and imagining them together, it would have been hell. And I don't know exactly what they would say about why they split up, but I do remember my dad. I asked my dad once, and he said I couldn't take the yelling anymore. And I think that if they had stayed together, I would have had, you know, less to manage. To your point, about two households, I did. My parents lived thousands of miles away from each other. So I did school years with mom and summers with dad. Some. Some parents and kids who live in the same town have to do every other weekend or every other week or there's all different structures. But to me, the. The quote unquote instability of that pales in comparison to the emotional instability I believe I would have suffered if they had been together. If they had stayed together, for me, I think I would have been far more damaged than I was with them apart. So what is the word stability really mean? What is stability if you're in a household where your parents. Something I've noticed men have talked about repeatedly that I've seen in our clients is they'll use the phrase, yeah, my parents fought a lot. And what I have noticed is that my parents fought a lot are four little words then that can represent big things. Big things, like mom used to throw things at dad, or, you know, mom used to just go away for a few days and we didn't know where she went or what. What was going on, or dad hit Mom. It's like these four little words of, yeah, my parents fought a lot. Like, it's like this, like, band aid or coverall over huge issues. And I don't know. I don't think that physical abuse would have been part of my domestic situation had my parents stayed together. But I don't know. I know they wouldn't have gotten along, and I would have been so tense and stressed out because I'm a pretty sensitive person. And, you know, most kids are sensitive to harmony and discord in their house because little kids, especially when there's disharmony, you know, they can feel it. And they. And they. Because of developmental stages, kids will automatically think, it's, it's my fault, I'm bad, I did something bad. That's why Mommy and daddy are fighting, even if it's completely irrational, because to a kid's brain, like. Like logic and rationality aren't really online yet, Especially under the age of six. I think there's a lot of emotional instability that can go along with staying together for the kids. And I loved what you said about there's a cost either way. There's a cost to staying and there's a cost to leaving a toxic relationship or something that's not serving you. And there are also gains and benefits on both sides. And I think sometimes that question, should we stay together for the kids or should I stay with this person for the kids? It's like there's this assumption that staying is the neutral option. And I actually think if you're asking the question, if you're asking the question, should we stay together for the kids? I think there's. There's. It's a significant thing that you're asking that it probably means it's not working. Something needs to change in the way the dynamic is unfolding right now. And that takes a lot of bravery. That takes a lot of courage. And I think that that's sort of the segue to. I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to what you've witnessed in terms of the men that we've worked with or that you've talked to who have chosen the brave thing of exiting a relationship that's not.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. A couple different things I've certainly noticed. One is that this is by no means the case for everyone. So this is just a spectrum of the types of relationships we're talking about, but one that I think sometimes people don't even consider as a possibility. And that's to a shocking degree. There have definitely been many men I've worked with and known in my own men's communities that, that find actually it actually is the intimacy part that does not work between them and their partner. Right. Like it's that, that's not working. And once that's taken off the table, they're actually amazing as co parents together. Meaning because we're not trying to make the intimacy work, we can actually be better parents still connected to each other. Yes. Living apart. But that, that frees up so much. And I've seen that one actually when.

Melanie Curtin: You'Re saying the word intimacy, you're including sex. What you're talking about is physical.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Like so us no longer being a pair bonded intimate sexual couple. Right. That thing. But when we free it up where, hey, we are co parents of these children and we're not in intimate relationship anymore, I've actually seen that to a surprising extent in again a spectrum of relationships. So this isn't going to work with everyone. But that is legitimately a possibility that I've seen happen. That it's like that actually is the pain point and when that's taken away, it's like we love parenting with each other. She's such a great mom and she's saying he's such a great dad. But they're different. Right. They're separate. That, that, that intimate relationship isn't part of that anymore. So that is a possibility. I just want guys to know exists. It may or may not be the case for you, but you may have an intuition on that. Right. Particularly if you've tried therapy and tried some stuff before. And it's like this is the thing that's not working. Us trying to be lovers.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. I think that, that probably that describes my parents. I mean, I know very little about their sex life, but I do know that they were great co parents. They were great co parents. I thought they did an amazing job coordinating and cooperating around travel and my education and, you know, decision making. I never felt like they were at odds, honestly. I felt like they did a really good job. And I can't point to a single instance of them fighting, you know, when I was consciously aware, like after the fact. I'm sure they fought when I was under three, but I don't remember. Um, but in terms of co parenting, man, they rocked it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So that's. That, that's a great example, I think, that you got to live out and that we've definitely seen in people. I know, right? And then families grow and new partners come in, and when that's possible, it's amazing. So again, you know, that's not going to be possible for everyone. Sometimes there's other things going on in a relationship that just make it impossible and that. That co parenting even becomes more of a transactional type thing. But what I have seen is, you know, kids are super intuitive and they, they often know. And what I've seen matter the most on the other side of that is the quality of connection and presence. Right. So even if I'm just seeing dad once every two weeks, but in that day, day and a half, like, I'm really with him and he's really with me, right? Really showing up, taking me on a hike, just asking me about my day, totally being present with me. It's often works, right? And kids sometimes even get excited. We've heard from some of our guys that they, like, love it and suddenly they want to go over to dad's house and they kind of prefer it. Like, that stuff can absolutely happen. Uh, you know, I, I think part of what makes that work is most of the men we know, like, like we said, have really given it their best. Like, have really made that effort, really showed up consistently over time and tried to create more connection or depth or intimacy in the relationship. And then it's just not working. And there's that point of just realization that nothing's going to make this work, really. And, you know, what do I want to model for my children now? Maybe stability is the most important thing. And if that's your decision, that's totally okay and totally not something we're going to judge. But do know that it's possible to have this other way where you do split up and you get to show you Know myself and a lot of people I've talked to, you know, particularly as they get older, like, will reveal, like, I never got to see my dad in love or I never got to see my mom in love. Like, I never actually physically got to see their body in love. Right. With that. Just that feeling of joy and happiness and connection to someone else. And that matters. Like, that really matters. I think it's. It's something we often see as we get older. And, you know, a thing I've heard time and time again, for couples that did stay together and then split up later on, it's very common for the children to say, like, why did you wait so long? Like, we knew, like, why did you wait so long? I could tell it was painful for you. It was painful for us. We could feel it. And I wish you had done it sooner. You know, truth be told, with. Even with all the challenges that come for that from the split household and the difficulties we've talked about, there's like a, you know, it clearly wasn't working. And, you know, stability isn't always the best medicine. Right. Like being able to see the same two parents every day, but they're totally disconnected or they're fighting all the time. That's a stability of that. Right. That's what you're stabilizing. There is that experience of relationship for them versus, like, yeah, there's the friction of holidays. And sometimes maybe co parents don't totally agree, but when I'm with a parent, I get to really be with them. They're. They're happier, they're freer. I'm getting their essence more, I'm understanding them more, and hopefully even getting to see them be in some kind of relationship that's meaningful to them that teaches me that, wow, I don't have to stay in something that's not working. It's actually okay for me to go towards what needs to happen.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And to really honor myself. To honor myself and my needs. You know, it's like in. In a romantic, intimate sexual relationship, if you're in a committed, monogamous relationship and you're not getting your sexual needs met, then you're not getting your needs met because that you've, you know, you've. You've locked the doors, the other exits are closed. This is the one channel for this. And if it's not happening, it's painful and it's often connected to other, other things that are going on in the relationship. You know, the flow of love in some way is blocked and there's Tons of reasons for that. And that's not what this exact podcast is about. But the point is that I think there's a way of honoring your own needs that you role model when you do leave a relationship that's not working, even if it's a marriage. And this is. This is a really interesting question because I. For a lot of people, there's this sense of. There's two things that. One is, I made a commitment, right? I took vows. This is a serious, lifelong commitment that I made. So how can I go back on my word like that? That feels really bad. And it feels like I'm role modeling, giving up or quitting if I choose to leave this relationship. And I think a lot of people grapple with that, especially religious folks, people who have a really strong sense of, this was supposed to be forever, this was supposed to be for life. And I remember one of my good friends is Christian, and that was a huge part of the dissolution of her marriage. That was troubling to her. Deeply troubling was this was a vow that we made. We made this vow. So for us to go back on that, for me to go back on that feels earth shattering. And ultimately, she did a lot of praying, and she. She's very connected to God in her. In her way. And ultimately God said, this is what needs to happen now. Like, this is the path. And the path isn't always neat and tidy. Sometimes the path is messy, and that's where growth happens. So this is the path. Actually, this is the spiritual path. It's not going back on the spiritual path or. Or skirting it. It's like, this is the path and sometimes it's messy. Which I thought was a really poignant, you know, reminder of how, you know, religion can be dogmatic. But a person's relationship with God or spirit, or however you want to say it is, is profound. And I found that such a beautiful sort of representation of what. What can be when it comes to that decision of, like, this is. This is now the spiritual path. This is what is called for, for everyone's highest good, mine, hers, the children's or whoever, his. Whatever pronouns you're using. And then the other thing is, I remember one of my guy friends was trying to determine whether he was going to stay with his woman. They weren't married, but they were together. And essentially, I think she had some borderline characteristics, characteristics of borderline personality disorder. And he knew that my parents were not together anymore. And it was funny because we. I remember having a text conversation with him where he was essentially trying to gauge, like, how much will I fuck up my daughter if I leave my wife? Or, sorry, they weren't married, but, like, if I, you know, if I choose that this relationship is. Is not working, and there are elements of it that feel deeply unhealthy, like, how much will I fuck up my daughter? He didn't say it like that, but I could feel this, you know, sense in him. And he was like, you know, so did you get therapy later in life? Like, how was it for you? And I could feel him trying to see, like, how much did it fuck you up that your parents split up? And one of the things I told him was, I'm deeply grateful that my parents chose to split up when they did. I'm really glad that I was young. I'm really glad that they didn't stay together and have conflict for years and have my poor little growing body be around all of that conflict. Like, there's such a. There's just that tension that you're around when it's not working right, when you can feel that there's no. There's no, like, juice there. There's no, like, affection. There's no love. There's no, like, kisses or hugs in the kitchen. And warmth. There's no warmth. It's like, I'm so glad that I wasn't around that environment because to your point, when I was with mom, I was really with mom, and when I was with Dad, I was really with dad, and dad remarried when I was 7 or 8, something like that. And, you know, they had their own issues, my dad and my stepmom. But I did witness a lot of affection. Like, I could feel that they were affectionate. And they had actually been high school sweethearts, so they. They knew they'd known each other since they were, like, 12 years old or something. And what I could really tell they had in their relationship was friendship, like a basis of friendship and. Yeah. And affection. So I got to be around them as a couple, and then my dad. And then when I was with mom, I was with mom, and I didn't have a lot of the conflict that they, you know, told me about earlier in life. And so what I was trying to explain to my friend was when you. When you're having conflict with your woman, like your. Your little girl is around, that she's. She's absorbing it. And I think that he thought, like, oh, since it was happening in another room or not when she was there, you know, that it was sort of fine. And it was like, no, but kids can feel it. They can feel it, they can sense it. The movie where the kid is sitting at the top of the stairs listening to their parents fight downstairs or like listening at the door to the study, like that's real. Kids are always trying to track what is happening in my family system. Am I safe? Is it my fault? There's no way. You can't, you know, direct that out of a child. That's just part of their development.

Jason Lange: Totally. And. Right. Even if it's, even if it's more like an example of, you know, my family, which was less, less explosive in some sense. But yeah, you know, dad and mom come home and there's just no connection between them. Right. Like that has a cost in. Or there's anxiety. Right. Because you're trying to make your partner happy and it's just you keep trying and trying and trying and trying and trying and it doesn't work and you're constantly stressed out. That's going to make it actually harder to be present for your kids. Right. If part of your energy is always around that dynamic. And I think that's just an important thing to notice versus like we said with some of that separation, well, now I can actually be with my son or be with my daughter in a way that's meaningful. And there's, you know, two things. I'll share one, one strategy, which I'll share in a moment. But in terms of my experience, like my parents didn't split up until I was in college and they were in there, I guess they would have been early 60s. And because of their nature, neither of them have re partnered up again. It was a long, like 10 year process. It was very brutal on both of them. And you know, they lived together even while they were kind of still getting divorced. It was just, it was, it was messy. And you know, part of my grief in that is they didn't get to share the best years of their lives with someone who was lit up about them. Right. Like, you know, they could still meet someone now in their, in their 70s, I certainly hope for that. But there is, there was a cost to them waiting for the kids. Right. In that they lost their 40s and 50s and what might have been possible there and you know, would have maybe caused some duress. But ultimately I think I would have been happier knowing my parents were in meaningful relationships and got to have that experience of it working. And I think that's just an important thing to take into the calculation here. Right. You know, these years don't last forever and Having that time with our kids, particularly when they're still at an age where those lessons can make a deep impact on their nervous system. You know, it's not that it won't happen later on, but we learn a lot about our ideal partner or what love looks like. You know, really before 15, I would say, like it, something kind of settles into us. And so there is a bit of a timeline there that I think is important, worth considering that, you know, to be able to get a, give a kid an experience of a lit up parent or a present parent is just something really important.

Melanie Curtin: And would you say that that also had an impact on you in terms of you, like, what did you learn?

Jason Lange: Totally. I didn't learn anything. I mean, what I didn't learn was what love looked like or felt like energetically in the room, right between two people. Like what connection look like. I just, I didn't see what affection looked like, what flirting look like. So as I got into high school, you know, part of my story, most people that listen to this know it was just, it was terror for me because that energy had never been, I'd never been in the presence of it, like just that simple and so not seeing that. And you know, one of the lessons I did kind of internalize was, you know, the, the dynamic that played out in, in our house was just each person's doing their roles, that should be enough. Mom's taking care of the house, Dad's earning money. That should be enough for a relationship. It wasn't enough, right? There was no connection there. I never saw any of that stuff. And that, that what I would call pattern still runs through me, right? Runs through me in my marriage. Like I have to consciously work against that to show up as a loving presence for my daughter, for my wife, that like, no, it matters to be present, put my attention on them, share affection. These things that actually are not the first impulse of my nervous system because it wasn't present in my house. Like that's a karma that still stays with me that I, I've done a lot of beautiful work and has totally, you know, shifted in a lot of ways. But the baseline is still kind of starting from there.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's.

Jason Lange: It.

Melanie Curtin: I'm just nodding along because that, you know, that question of, of my friend, right. Like, hey, just sort of trying to gauge like how fucked up are you because your parents split up? It's like, how healthy am I because my parents split up, Right. How much more of us.

Jason Lange: Great question, right?

Melanie Curtin: How much more of a shot do I have now that they've split up. And I like to what you said of it's, you know, it's never too late. There's never a point at which it's too late. Nothing expires. Right. Like you grew up in the kind of house where love and being in loveness was not role modeled, but you have an amazing wife and daughter. So it's like it's. Everything is overcomeable. And this is why I love our program and I love watching men's lives transform form. Because when you do personal growth work, it works. It actually does things. Your life changes and it doesn't happen overnight, but we see significant changes in our men over the course of our program, which is only 10 weeks. And then we see even more significant changes over the next three, six, nine, 12 months, especially, I would say the first year and even after that. Because as you grow, the delta between where you were and where you are now also grows. It's like, it's like a. It's like a virtuous cycle. Right. As you grow, you. You become bigger, your world begets more expansive. You attract different kinds of people. You've. You've hit another threshold and another level. And I'm wondering if there's a, you know, significant story or stories of men we've supported that come to mind in terms of this particular constellation of leaving a relationship and the impact on the kids. You know, for me, I think one of the stories that comes to mind is the freedom around setting a boundary with a co parent and saying, like, our relationship is not going to be what it was. Like, I need to get a divorce from you. We need to get a divorce. And then role modeling, healthy boundaries, which are not easy sometimes, it's not easy to set those boundaries, but what a gift to those kids. It's like they're actually getting to see dad say, here's what's okay and here's what's not okay, and here's what I'm going to do about it instead of just here's what I tolerate every day.

Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's a great example and, you know, one comes to mind of just a client who did make an exit from a relationship and was really concerned about the stability of his family and his sons. And that, you know, what's opened up for him in creating, you know, a life for himself essentially is so much more vitality, like in so much more him ness, if I could put it in a way that his kids are now getting to experience with him.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Where they're asking to be with him because they can, you know, I think, feel a part of their father that they never got to feel before. And that's a part of him that they were really attracted to, right? A man in his power, in his pleasure, knowing right where he needs to be, still attuned, you know, still connected to his ex in the ways he needs to be, but also, you know, living a life that. That's meaningful. And I really think that does send a signal to them.

Melanie Curtin: It's so interesting. I was reading something the other day about parenting, and they said part of your job as a parent is to thrive. It's actually part of their job. And I think in the West, I think that's missed. When I think about sort of puritanical expectations around parenting, it's really like, are you providing for your kids? Are you providing them with enough love, with enough affection, with enough attention? Are you sending them to the right school or the right camp? Do they have the right, you know, food? Are they like, are they okay? Vs are they okay? And are you thriving? Are you. Are you thriving? Are you doing your art, whatever your art is in the world? Are you happy? Do you have healthy friendships and connections with others? Are you thriving? Because that is part of your job as a parent? And my little mind was blown. I was like, holy shit. I've never put that in the arena of good, quote, unquote, good parenting. That's always been like, oh, there's this extra, like, you know, are you okay? Okay, whatever. But there's just this sort of like sacrificial frame around parenting of like, you have to do everything for the kids and sort of sacrifice yourself. And it just completely turned that on its head. To say part of your job as a parent is to thrive.

Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's something I was thinking about, and I think it's showing up in research and stuff now. That there can be an overemphasis on the kid and their well being is actually one of the kind of reverse backlashes happening here in the west, where we just never want our kids to be upset or never have any problems. But I think there's a different thing we're seeing here, which is what's important is for them to be around the energy of thriving, which thriving doesn't mean everything's always working right. It just means that there's room in our system for tension or disconnection that we then keep growing beyond. And I really like this image of, you know, the parental unit, the couple, you know, whoever's Kind of the baseline for. For the family. And this even goes, I guess, apart, you know, once you're single. Because sometimes just being single as a parent, you're going to feel more resourced is like your light is kind of what lights up the kid. Right. That's it. There's like. It's contagious in that sense. And so the more thriving the parents are, that just overflows onto the kids. It just totally does. Right. Because they're awash in that energy in their nervous system. And I think that's a really important thing that gets missed sometimes on the stability side of things. Right. Where they haven't had to change houses, they haven't had to change schools, but, like, what's the actual energetics in the nervous system of the relationships in the house? Right. Because that stuff that just gets. It gets encoded. That's. That's the truth. It gets woven in there. And so this idea of. Yeah, you know, is the couple in love? Are they thriving? Are they modeling, you know, healthy disagreements, healthy flirting, healthy love? Those are all such important lessons that we just soak up as kids.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm getting this image of what you're describing of, like, the good enough marriage. Like, it's good enough. It's fine. It's the energy of fine. It's okay. Things are okay. And it's like, if you think of it as a battery, it's like, it's like at 30%, it's okay. It's fine. Versus, say, the parents split up and now there's room to be at 100%. Right. Maybe someone's not at 100% all the time, but sometimes they are. And there's so much more expression and regard and joy that's available that it's like, oh, wow, the spikes up to 10. The spikes up to 100%. The kids get to see and witness and be around, and there's just more aliveness versus the good enough. Like, the vibration of good enough is not that inspiring. And like you said, I think it does sort of teach the kids, this is how life is. Life is. Life is good enough. It's okay. Versus life is expensive and tremendous. And sometimes it's really difficult, and we can do hard things, and we're resilient. And then look at this joy that we have. Look at this picnic we went on. Like, and we're laughing and we're having fun, and we're connected, and we're playing a game, and I'm tickling you, and it's. It's fun. You know, there's those moments versus it's just sort of a three all the time. It's okay, it's vital, but he's alive.

Jason Lange: There's a vitality to it, I think, that comes through when there's a passionate, connected intimacy.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: Between the parents. That that's what kind of kickstarts the whole engine, I think. And if that's not there, right. That's where things kind of go awry or if it is just fighting or friction or blaming or, you know, another one we've seen of just like. Yeah, there was just no, like no sex. Right. And then sex becomes something that I just. Part of my nervous system doesn't understand or go for value because my parents didn't have it. Right. I guess you don't really need that. It's like, no, you fucking need that. When that's there, it vitalizes the whole, whole system of everyone in it. And so again, you know, what we're saying here is you don't have to make a choice either way. It's totally up to you. But to know that there's costs on both sides in what, you know, I think the thing to really think about is like, what is the energy of the system my child's nervous system is being immersed in every day. Right. Is it friction? Is it disconnection? Is it just. Yeah, that kind of gray? Well, I do my thing, she does her thing, and that's enough. Right. Which isn't really intimacy of any kind. And I think that's just an important thing to be aware of in. You know, I said I'd share a strategy. And one thing I think can really help when this moment happens is just the cleanness in the heart of knowing I really did, like, I really did try to make this work. Right. I think there's a point a lot of guys we've worked with that it finally clicks that, like, I fucking showed up. I did everything I possibly could and it didn't work. So now I feel in integrity walking away, right. Or ending that the context of that relationship in. We're really big on this idea of containers in our program, which we teach men. And one strategy is the all in if you haven't tried it, right? And what I mean by that is setting a container of like, you know, three to six to nine months of really saying, I'm just taking this off the table, me leaving. So I'm just going to be all in and try to take responsibility for a hundred percent of what I might be doing to cause you Know, this friction in the relationship. Right. And that's not an easy thing to do. And that's not going to be something all men are willing to do, truth be told. Like, that's a tall order to take 100% responsibility for all the ways I may be trying to contribute and then trying to really lead my partner through counseling or through couples programs or all the different things. We could try that, you know, within that container of I'm going to take leaving the relationship off the table, so we're just not in that red flag zone for a little while and try it. And then almost always, I found there's a point where it's like, yeah, wow, I really gave it my all and it wasn't enough. We're just not compatible in some sense. It's even depersonalized. And it's just like, we can't make this work. So it's time to move on and create something new, a new opportunity for myself and for my family unit.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's so well said. And if you, if you are listening and you do want support or you're interested, you should take our free training. And, and I just want to be explicit about the fact that we do work with men in this position. We've worked with men who are, who've been divorced for years, who are recently divorced, or who are trying to figure it out. So if you're in that position, you, you can get support wherever you are. It doesn't have to be. I've done the thing. I'm already past the place. You know, I've got it figured out. You, you can get support at whatever stage you're at because there's different, you know, there's different strategies and there's different things that you need to be processing at different stages, you know, depending on where you are. We have, you know, men that we're working with that are married, trying to figure it out. They're like, I'm evaluating. Is this a healthy relationship? Is this a healthy marriage? Where am I showing up? Where am I not? And then we have men that are recently divorced who are like, I've never dated. You know, I was, I married this person in my early 20s and didn't really know who I was at that point. And now I'm in my, you know, late 30s or early 40s getting back out there, like, wherever you are in your journey, there is support that's available. And I think that's important because a lot of it is about, you know, not reinventing the wheel like Jason, you've worked with mentors all through your sort of personal growth journey that knew more than you did at that stage. Right. And there was really. There was something really powerful about that, about not trying to figure it out all alone. And I think that's just something I wanted to touch on because I think that's something that I wish I'd had in my history of. I wish I'd had someone who'd been there or someone who could have helped so that it could have just gone a little bit faster.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I think that's one of the key things that a lot of the guys that work with us end up experiencing. You know, if they are in a relationship or a marriage and they're in that, like, I can't figure this out phase or I'm not sure is the clarity that it's often much clearer to those around us that know us and trust us and care about us, what's really going on and what the right answer is. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's. You know, we can be in doubt. We will often get so immersed in the system of our relationship. You know, one of the upside, one of the things we've talked about in the last months is, you know, the ability of men to tolerate a lot and for the new normal to be kind of not be normal. Right. Oh, my parents fought a lot. Right. It's just, boom. All human beings can do that. But there's something about suddenly having, you know, a tribe of brothers and us as coaches that as your stories come out and as the experience you're having comes out, usually it's pretty clear to people around you that's like, wow, it just really feels like this just isn't going to work. You know, I really see you put it in, put in the time, put in the effort, or, you know, sometimes with guys, it's like, oh, you know, it kind of seems like actually, no, you haven't yet fully showed up in a way that I think you'd feel good about walking away right now. And there's something about the power of that community and then just the relief, a lot of our guys experience of just having other guys to talk to about the process. Right. Of how they got through it or what worked for them or, you know, all the different steps and all the accumulated wisdom that comes out from that of like, oh, shit, this decision, that's probably amongst the most important ones I have to make in my life. Like, I'm not alone in that. Right. I don't have to be alone in that decision and the repercussions of that. So I know that as I do make those decisions, because I've kind of gotten the support of the tribe and the community and the coaching. I can feel even more relaxed in knowing it was the right call.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I was really. I was really touched. Some of our guys were talking the other night, and one of them said, I chased my wife for 20 years and I never found her. And there were at least two other men on the call that could relate to that experience. Just chasing and constantly trying to reach out and not. And having the other person turn away and just knowing, like, I'm not the only person who's been there for that long. You know, just the experience of doing that, sort of extending your hand and having someone turn away is so painful. And then to have that happen repeatedly is so painful. And to know someone else was there and has been through that, I. I just. That's invaluable.

Jason Lange: Game changer. Like, it literally, we see guys bodies change on. On our calls sometimes, you know, we're on video. And the. When that space resonates of like, oh, shit, I wasn't the only one. It's like, can feel the weight. It's not that it's not painful, but there's something about it. It's now being held in a communal space by others that literally walked the same path or understood or resonate in some way. It totally transforms things. And for a lot of our guys, it also releases them from some kind of. From a lot of shame. Of like, oh, I thought I, you know, I was the only one so messed up to be in this kind of dynamic. And we find time and time again the things that guys bring in that they think they're the only one or something. There's almost always someone else in our group who has shown up with a similar thing. And the magic of that is uncanny. And what it does to liberate us from like, oh, okay, this is a thing that happens. I don't have to be so hard on myself.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, yeah. I think that's a good place to kind of wrap up this discussion. And if you are interested in our free training, if you're interested in going deeper than the podcast, I would recommend it. And you can find that at Evolutionary Men slash Dear Men. Evolutionary Men slash Dear Men.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. There's some great stuff in there. And one of the cool things about how Mel and I work with men is a lot of guys we work with are in more the dating phase. Like, we said, we work with guys that are married, divorced, getting back like all phases of the cycle. And the amazing thing, you know, I certainly know firsthand these days is all those tools we help guys develop for early dating are even more important in long term relationship in terms of keeping it vital, keeping it alive, keeping it connected.

Melanie Curtin: Great point.

Jason Lange: Don't.