137: Should you stay friends with her? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: For some, some of us guys, you know, in those situations, every time we interact, it's like a little band aid, right? It's just, oh, it was healing and now it's ripped off. It's healing. Oh, wait, there was something in the way she said that. Like, oh, maybe like she said, am I available Saturday? And then, right, My whole week might just shoop. Suddenly orient around. Okay, Holy shit, I gotta be ready in case she wants to hang.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Happy New Year. One of my intentions for the new year is to incorporate more of you and your experiences into the podcast. So if you haven't yet heard, I have something called the Big Sexy Data Set, which is the conglomeration of all of my listeners and clients and anyone else who wants to be involved in my sex research. If you're interested in joining the Big Sexy Data Set, just email me@dearmen podcastmail.com and say, add me to the Big Sexy Data Set. And every once in a while it's going to be more frequent. In 2021, I will send out a survey about something with respect to sex, dating or relationships and then I will craft an episode around that. I have a really cool idea for one coming up, so if you can please join, I would love to have you. Again, just email me@dearman podcastmail.com and just say, add me to Big Sexy Data Set. All survey responses are kept anonymous and confidential. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode. This one is inspired by some of the men in our program and a really good conversation that we had on our one of our weekly calls and I thought it was so compelling I wanted to do an episode about it. So welcome back to the podcast. Jason Lange, always love to have you here.

Jason Lange: Always excited to return.

Melanie Curtin: So today we are tackling the question, should you stay friends with her? And of course it's a sort of vague her in title, but what I have seen repeatedly is the. The question of should I stay friends with an ex girlfriend? Should I stay friends with the woman I went on two dates with from Bumble and she said she wasn't interested, but you know, should I stay friends with her or the woman I've been relating with for six to nine months in this class I'm taking? I don't, I'm not sure if she's interested, I don't know, but I want to stay friends just in case all of those. We're sort of covering that whole range of events and I have lots to say on this, but I'm curious to hear from you about your Past when it comes to staying friends with women that you were pretty sure you weren't gonna have a sexual relationship with, but who you were interested in having a sexual relationship with. So, like that dynamic of you're pretty sure she doesn't want to have sex with you, you would like to have sex with her. I mean, you'd like to be friends with her too, but you would like to be more than friends. What has been your experience in that sort of arena?

Jason Lange: Yeah, for me personally, it just never really works. That's just the kind of the short of it. And what I mean by worked is like it never took me in a direction that led to more positivity in my life personally. And sometimes that was a mix of still kind of being hung up, but maybe thinking I wasn't and noticing, you know, even this friendship was still occupying a lot of attention in my life, a lot of energy in my life. Um, and sometimes it was just a matter of, particularly with some exes, you know, earlier in my journey, the impulse was to stay friends because, you know, someone who I shared a significant part of my life with, even if it was a shorter term thing, an impactful experience, and of course I would want to stay connected to them. And the sequencing of that one often turned out to be quite wrong in terms of like, when that was possible would be something that the. Just when that can authentically be something true. I tended to get wrong thinking I could just stay friends with partners afterwards and that, you know, it'd be okay for me and it would be okay for her. So for me, you know, as someone who had my history of super crushes, for frequent listeners that knew, particularly earlier, you know, in my, my high school kind of experience, usually it was kind of a drawn out thing, like kind of being interested in women, maybe pursuing her from a distance, then maybe kind of getting close into some friend energy and then expressing my feelings and then they're not met and then kind of trying to keep that going for a little while before. Before realizing like, oh, yeah, actually this isn't working for me and it's actually starting to get a little uncomfortable for her.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, several things come to mind about what you said, but I think that the cost is something that I'd like to address. So I'm going to tell a story from my history. I had a major, major crush on this guy in high school. We'll call him Chris. Huge crush. I mean, we're talking like big crush, like really liked this guy. And it became increasingly apparent to me that he Liked this other girl in our group and not me. And I was really sad, and I really wanted him. I was like, you know, like, I really liked this guy. I guess I just wanted. This was not like, a passing thing. I really, really liked him. And when I sort of became aware that he liked this other girl, I remember having a conversation with him in this. Like, we were part of a peer counseling program, and we were like, in the PC room, the peer counseling room. And he was. He was kind of like, I forget what her name was. It was like, Becky or something. He was like, you know, do you think. Do you think Becky, like, notices me? Or do you think Becky. Whatever. He's talking about Becky. And I'm. I'm sitting there, and I'm like, I can't believe that I'm listening to my crush talk about another girl. And I just remember, like, feeling depressed and kind of annoyed. And then I sort of. From that moment on, like, from that. That was like, a turning point conversation for me where I was like, this is so painful. I don't want to be exposed to this anymore. And so I stopped going to the peer counseling room. I stopped going to the places around campus I knew he would be. I kind of, like, removed myself from that relationship. I didn't cut him out of my life. I wasn't like, I never want to see you again. It wasn't dramatic, but it was a conscious choice that I made to spare myself pain and suffering. And I guess the. I feel like there's this. This cost that happens. You know, you mentioned time and energy that you had been putting into relationships like this. And I think that it seems to me, like a lot of our guys, when we're having this conversation, they. They weren't necessarily thinking about the cost to them, right? They were thinking about, well, I want some kind of connection, or I. I should want to be friends or some kind of. I guess I'm wondering if you can elucidate that a little bit, because to me, it was almost instinctual. It was painful. It was painful. It was like, oh, God. Because there was a part of me that wanted to see him, right? Oh, I want to go to the PC room so that I can see him. But there was this other part of me that was, like, essentially setting a boundary that was like, that's not good for us. It doesn't feel good to be around. Because my experience was sort of continual rejection. Like, every time he was talking about this other girl, I felt kind of rejected. And I knew cognitively he wasn't actively rejecting me. Right. He liked this other girl and he was talking about it. He didn't, he wasn't trying to cause me harm, but harm was happening to me. And so I had to set a boundary to save myself hurt and pain and, and then wondering, you know, it seems like we've come across a lot of guys who. There's. There's something that's overriding that. There's something that's overriding that. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to what are some things that might override that. That sort of natural sense of, of wanting to push someone away and again, not cutting them out, not being rude to them, not sort of being a dick, but just a healthy boundary that's like this, this is not good for me, actually.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of different things for one. So it's going to be a little different for every guy. But some of the things I've experienced and I think we've witnessed in guys we've supported. On the one hand there is, you know, for guys like me who kind of walk to the nice guy path, you know, the nice guy syndrome we've kind of talked about before, of not wanting to be lumped in with the kind of the caveman, the. That guy. Right. Something we've talked about a lot. The guy who's just out to use a woman for sex. So I'm not that I want her to know I'm not that. So the best way for her to know I'm not that is just let her know I'm happy to be friends with her even if we can't have sex. Right.

Melanie Curtin: So then that's so important what you just said because what you're speaking to is my identity around being a good guy. That my identity around being a good guy is so important to me that I will sacrifice my own well being in order to preserve that. And it's a perception. Right. This isn't actually necessarily the case, but it's. I don't want to be seen as that guy that is so motivating to not be seen as that guy that I will continually place myself around someone where I feel kind of rejected. A lot of the time that I'm hanging out with this person so that I'm not seen as that guy is that guy.

Jason Lange: And this ties into. This can also tie into some of the COVID contract stuff we've talked about before. You know, another layer of this is nice guys sometimes tend to attract women who have been with not so nice guys. Right. And so there's a feeling of, oh, if she just gets to know that I'm not into her for that like those other guys were, eventually she's going to like me or open. So I think sometimes there can, you know, be a little bit of that covert contract running underneath that. Well, if I prove to her by just staying friends with her and valuing our friendship and being okay with that, then at some point she's going to be like, oh, he's different, and I want to connect with him. Maybe I do want to be sexual with him. Maybe I'm attracted to him. So I think that's one of the things that can be running in the background for some of our guys. For some of them, I don't think. I think there's a just a should. That I should be able to just be friends with anyone. Right. I should be stronger than my sexual urge or impulse and that, you know, this is something I've heard before. I should be able to just get over my feelings, like, Right. Like sometimes in a matter of days or weeks after maybe I've made a pass at a woman or communicated that I'm interested, and then she doesn't reciprocate. There's like, well, I should just be able to get over that because, hey, here's this great person who does want to connect with me. And if I don't do that, then again, maybe there's some kind of shame or there's something wrong with me or something like that. The other thing that this isn't true for all men, but some of the men, certainly that have come through our program, particularly for men that haven't had a lot of experience of having other good male connection in their life, you know, whether it's kind of bro culture, locker room culture that you were exposed to, maybe there can be an actual experience that some guys have had of, well, it's not safe to talk to guys about, like, my feelings and stuff. And I have feelings. I'm not like those cavemen. Like, I need to talk about my feelings. Oh, I feel comfortable talking about my feelings with women. And hey, yeah, I'm interested in her. And we kind of have this nice emotional connection going on. So that should be enough. Right? Even. Even though I have these sexual feelings, that should be enough because she still wants to connect with me like that. And I think that can leave a guy, a lot of guys, feeling a little stuck or trapped if they don't have, you know what I would argue solid Male connection in their life that they can be getting some of that emotional need met by. Those are a couple of the things, you know, that just come to mind. The identity piece, you know, I don't want to be that guy kind of holding on to hope and then the. Well, I should be able to just get on to my. Get over my feelings and I don't really have anywhere else I can get this kind of connection, you know, so. So yeah, I'm going to stay with her. Even though for some. Some of us guys, you know, in those situations, every time we interact, it's like a little band aid, right? It's just, oh, it was healing and now it's ripped off. It's healing. Oh, wait, there was something in the way she said that. Like, oh, maybe like she said, am I available Saturday? And then, right. My whole week might just suddenly orient around, okay, holy shit, I gotta be ready in case she wants to hang out Saturday. That's kind of what I was talking about about, like, energy and mental presence as well. That for. For me, oftentimes the trying to stay friends with a woman, the level of rumination that came along with that just had a high cost in my life.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's interesting. I was thinking about this in terms of the. The high school guy, and there was a lot of grief attached to choosing to no longer go to the places on campus where I knew I'd see him because I just was really grieving that, like, I really, really liked him. I liked seeing him and all that stuff. And it took a while for that grief to be processed. But it's interesting because it also sort of. To your point, I was like, oh, wow, I have a lot more time now because I'm not, you know, wondering about this weekend and stuff. Like, I had weirdly, like, more time than I knew what to do with. And I think that was, you know, partly filled with grieving, but also mental bandwidth. And this was something that came up on the call where we were talking about it with the men was it's not just mental bandwidth. It's also actual physical plans, right? So if you're a man staying friends with a woman that it's not gonna happen with, right? You're not gonna be in a relationship with woman, with this particular woman. But you want a relationship in your life, right? It's different if you're not in a place where you want a relationship. But let's say you're a man. You're like, I want a sexual relationship. I want to be with a Woman where we're having sex and we're friends, we're dating. I really like her. She really likes me. She's into me. I want that. That's what I want. Well, if you're hanging out with this other woman all the time that you're friends with, you're going to a movie on Saturday. You went to an art show earlier in the week. She was having a hard day, so you went over and gave her a foot rub and made her dinner, whatever it is. Those are all nights and events that you're not doing something else. So just in a strictly sort of time perspective, it's like, again, there's a sacrifice that's being made to preserve this friend relationship that has a cost. And I guess that's part of why I wanted to do this episode. Because to me, I don't want men to get stuck. I don't want guys to get stuck in this place where they're being kind of like half fed by these sort of friendships. But there's this missing thing. There's this deep longing that they have. There's this deep desire for this other thing. And. And this isn't really fulfilling it. It's like a. It's like a. It's like a sugary snack or something instead of a meal. It's like, I'm craving this meal, but this is here. So, like, at least this is here. And it just. I just don't want men to get stuck. So I'm wondering, you know, in your. In your journey, do you feel like there was a point? I mean, I'm guessing it was doing the work. I'm guessing it was personal growth and development. But do you feel like there was a point where you kind of woke up to the cost of these friendships? Was there a moment where you were like, oh, wow, I need to sort of stop this pattern. This isn't. This isn't serving me.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, in. In high school and college, I think the cost. I realized. I mean, I didn't necessarily realize it during those times. Truth be told, it's kind of more of a postscript. Noticing of it is like my rumination with those crushes, so to speak. I wasn't available to, like, pursue other things. Right. My vision kind of closed down. So I just wasn't like, I wasn't going to as many parties. I wasn't going to as many things. You know, I would subtly make myself available and try to orient into the same spaces, you know, as crushes or women I had were interested in. But we were kind of just staying friends. So for me, it just became a matter of, you know, waking up to the resources of it and, you know, this deep idea, we work with a lot of our guys, of honoring self and, okay, what's. What do I need? What's my integrity around this? And the realization that, like, it's okay. Like, it's kind of just a simple thing, but, like, oh, it's okay to not stay friends with someone who I'm interested in, that isn't interested in me back. It's okay to not stay friends with an ex. Like, it's actually okay that it doesn't make me a bad person, right. I think as that started to dawn on me, like, the amount of relief around that was big in that, oh, okay. You know, part of my identity piece of this we talked about a little bit with the kind of nice guy thing was the. Because I didn't feel in my power, in my masculine and in touch with my sexuality, there was a way I subtly judged that in others who had it right. And so one of the ways I would kind of try to. It's hard to explain, but, like, you know, I'm a dude, so rank myself above those people was, well, I'm the, like, chivalrous white knight who's just okay being friends in cool with, like, platonic love, right? Like, I'm above all that. And that had some really high costs and was hurting me, you know, quite, quite, quite, quite truthfully. So realizing that, like, oh, all that stuff is actually super important to me if I'm gonna be, you know, not to sound crass, but, like, if I'm gonna be investing that much time into a relationship, I would have my sexual needs met. Like, because, you know, because for me, as I got older, I was getting a lot of the other pieces met by male friends. So, you know, it was like, well, what is this relationship bringing me that I'm not already getting in other areas of my life and sex and sexuality and that type of intimacy was the number one thing, right? Like a big, big piece of that.

Melanie Curtin: I think that's really wise what you said about getting right with that, just that piece. Because I would imagine if I were a guy hearing that, I'd be like, oh, well, isn't that selfish to want that? Isn't it selfish or isn't it. What's the word? Like, I don't know, like, bad to be like, well, I want to get my sexual needs met, right? Just that I can. I can feel the sort of, like, resistance of like, isn't that. Yeah, exactly. Like, isn't that bad? Isn't that. Doesn't that just mean you just want sex? And it's like, it doesn't mean you just want sex, but it means you want sex. It's like, it's okay to want sex. It's healthy to want sex. If you're looking for a sexual relationship. Right. I want to be in a relationship where we're having sex. It's okay to want sex. Like, because part of, you know, I've. I've had this experience as well, and I definitely feel like there's a certain amount of guilt where I'll go on a date or two with a guy and realize I'm not sexually interested in him, have to have the conversation. And then there's a part of me that's like, but we should stay friends. Like, we should say, I should want to stay friends with him. We should stay friends. We should still hang out. And it's like, why? What is that? Social pressure. And I think that part of it comes from a really good place, which is, I don't want to only see your value to me as whether we're going to have sex or not. I want to see you as a whole human being, and I want to honor you as a whole human being. I don't want it to just be, well, I don't want to bang you. So there's no value in us connecting. And I think that there honestly are true friendships that have formed from, quote, unquote, failed sexual connections, Right? Where one person's interested and the other person's not. I have those in my life. I have genuine friends where either I wasn't interested or he wasn't interested, but we did stay friends. I think the point here is choice around it, choice around it, consciousness around it, right? If it is someone that you're into and they're not into you, and every time you see them, there's a tug or there's. Like you said, it's like ripping off the band aid again. That's something that you probably want to evaluate because that cost, that sacrifice that you're making. You know, I hear this again and again from men who tend to feel used. I really. I feel a lot of compassion for men in that position, and I. I want to encourage them to have stronger boundaries. If there's a way that you repeatedly feel used, I'm going to suggest that there may be a boundary that you haven't been setting that is setting you up to feel used, right? If you're not setting boundaries, you know, and it's easy for the other person to receive from you, but you're not setting boundaries around what actually works for you and where you feel hurt and where you don't. It's not really that other person's fault. That's not how that works. It's not that you've set a boundary and they're repeatedly crossing it. And if that is the case, that's another reason for you to not be around that person. But more, More. More of the time, I think it's that there hasn't even been a boundary set. And this part of, you know, well, isn't it selfish for me to say, well, if I don't want to have sex with her, that means I don't want to be friends with her? Isn't that wrong? Isn't that bad? Doesn't that make me that guy? What would you say to that? I'm curious if a man were to actually ask you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say no in that. You know, like, with all this stuff, again, sometimes it's sequencing. It's like, oh, there could be a valuable friendship there.

Melanie Curtin: But.

Jason Lange: But, you know, oftentimes for me, when I have been in those types of situations, it doesn't really truly relax in that until both of us have our attention and are maybe in something else, right? Then there's like a. It's different. Same thing, I think, with X's and the, like, should I stay connected? For me, you know, it's just a totally different energy when an ex is, like, in another relationship and established and I'm in another relationship and established, and it's like that loop is very closed. So it's. It's different to, you know, engage with them and that. And sometimes it takes time, like, no contact, healing, separation for that to kind of. To kind of close.

Melanie Curtin: I mean, it always takes time. I think that's what you mean by the sequencing thing is that I feel like there's a lot of. There's a lot of the men that we worked with where they want to do the friend thing right away. They're in, we're gonna stay friends. And it's like, yeah, except this. That separation that you just described, the time part. To grieve and to heal and to, you know, come back to yourself. Because a lot of us lose ourselves in relationship.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: Time. There's. You can't. It's like trying to force a flower to open up. You can't force the flower to open up. It has to actually do Its thing. And I think healing is much like that. So, you know, it's like, sometimes it takes times. Like, it usually takes time, especially if it was serious. And by serious, I don't necessarily mean that it was a serious relationship, but if you were serious about that other person, right? If you were really into them, you know, the super crushes that you had, Jason, like, they were real to you. You were having an experience, she might not have been aware of it, but you were having a whole experience. I would consider something like that serious. Right. It would take time for you to kind of get over it. It's not like, well, just, you know, devoted nine months of my life obsessing about this person. Now I'm over it. Like, that's not really how that works.

Melanie Curtin: Those are great. Those are great questions. I really appreciate those as kind of a litmus test for, you know, how clean is this? How clean is this friendship? How clean is my energy around this friendship? And sort of, to your point, I think there's a need that is getting met, I think for a lot of guys in this situation. And sort of, to your point, sometimes it's emotional support. And, you know, again, to your point, it's like the point here is not to say, don't ever be friends with women. Like, don't be friends with any women. That's not the point. But it is worth considering the landscape of your friendships. Do you have deep, reliable, heartfelt relationships with other men? Because there is, and I'm talking mostly for, you know, men who have sex with women, right? Men who identify as straight, who have sex with women. But even if you're queer and you have sex with both or you're pansexual, however you identify, there's. There's something important about being genuine friends. Having genuine friends in your life where there is no attraction at all, regardless of what gender they are, but where that is not on the table, right? There's something. There's a way that two people can be close in a friendship that is simply not possible when one or both of them is interested sexually. There's just something about it. There's just something about that energy that sort of fucks with the space. I don't know what it is, but there's a kind of safety that happens with friends, deep friendships, or in community that is different, and it holds you in a different way, and it feels important. And I've seen it again and again in our guys that come from a program where when they start to get that deep nourishment from, you know, other men in the program or just being in a new community, it's like that sort of need to be friends with her becomes less. What's the word? Like, addictive or like, compulsive. It's like, now there's more choice around it. There's more space around it. It does. It's because I think that there's this thing that happens where it's like. I remember talking to one of my guy friends who kind of identified as a nice guy, and I remember asking, like, why would you stay friends with this person that, you know, doesn't want you back? Essentially, there it is. And he said something like, well, something's better than nothing. And if I. If I let go of this, I have nothing. And so there was this poverty, like a lack, kind of feeling.

Jason Lange: Scarcity.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I could feel when he described it, I was like, oh, shit, yeah, I'm with you. If I was, you know, if I was in that position, I could totally see how it's like, fuck, something's definitely better than nothing. And, you know, I don't want that for our guys. I don't want that for anyone listening. I want. I want that man to have what he actually wants. I want him to have it all. I don't want him to have to sort of settle for scraps.

Melanie Curtin: Well, it's so interesting too because I feel like for many of many of the men that I've witnessed have attracted something better right there. It's like there's this hang up on this person that the man attracted when he was at a different level of development. And then let's say he comes and he does a bunch of personal growth and he goes through our program and he chooses to grow in all of these different ways. He almost becomes a different version of himself. And at that point, he attracts a different kind of woman. And so, sort of to your point, it's like, even if that. A lot of the guys I've seen at the. At the end, they realized there were these sort of toxic elements of that relationship, or there was a way that they were, again, contorting themselves into something. Maybe they. A person they didn't really want to be, to try to please her, to try to get her to like them, that kind of thing. And. And after they've grown, they're like, I don't want to contort myself. I want to actually just be who I am and be in a healthy here. So it's like, I don't want to.

Jason Lange: Have to get her to like me.

Melanie Curtin: Exactly. I don't want to have to get her to like me. I want to be who I am, and she likes me.

Melanie Curtin: Exactly.

Jason Lange: Like. But that's like, a powerful place, and it's a very fulfilling place that some of our guys, I think, just don't realize, like, they deserve that. Like, that's actually just. You just totally deserve that. To, like, not have to convince a woman or not have to be a certain way, but, like, hey, here's what I want and here's who I am. And then she's like, a yes to that.

Melanie Curtin: That's the most inspiring part, I think, to me, is to watch. Watch men grow and become even fuller versions of themselves. I remember we got an email from one of our graduates, and I'm gonna, like. I don't know. I'm gonna, like, just tear up thinking about it. But he said something like, I feel like I can finally be myself, and that's the biggest gift. And I don't have to sort of try to be someone else with women. And I was really touched by that because I felt like that was kind of the whole point, Right. It's like, this isn't about changing yourself. It's actually about kind of becoming yourself even more. Like, turning up the volume on who you are and all of who you are. I'm talking about your sexuality, too. I'm talking about all of you, all the way down to your balls. Not just parts, right, that you've cut off. Because to me, it's like integrating the full you. Like, this is me. This is what I want. This is, you know, where I'm going. This is where I'm vulnerable. I like you. I would like this to work. Where are you at? And like being the whole package, it's not, I don't know, it's just. There's something, there's something really satisfying about watching men go through the program and then, yeah, being like, I want to. I choose something else. I don't want to do that sort of toxic dance before. Like, that's not exciting to me anymore. And it's not like they had to force themselves or will themselves. It's just like, I think I've kind of outgrown that totally.

Melanie Curtin: I mean, mic drop, that's. I like, I think we should wrap there because I don't think there's a lot more to add in terms of. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay to not, not stay friends with her. If you are interested in learning more about our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men training, and we have a free training there, which is a great way if you're looking to go a bit deeper than the podcast. And we will catch you next.