In this episode of the Heart of Shadow series, Luke Adler and I delve into the nuanced discussion of why men often fear coming forward emotionally, especially in intimate relationships. We explore the idea that while there is a growing expectation for men to be more vulnerable and emotional, there can be a disconnect when men express their emotions and their partners don’t respond as expected. We go deep into the changing societal norms around masculinity and the struggles we men encounter as we strive to express our emotions authentically.
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Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back. So super pumped to be back for another installment of the Heart of Shadow series with my main man Luke Adler here, the co facilitator of our Heart of Shadow program. And today, we kind of want to take a nuanced discussion of, you know, why it is men often fear coming forward emotionally. You know, this shows up everywhere, but particularly with a lot of the men we work with, shows up in their relationships, sometimes with their intimate partner, shows up with other men. And I think we're right on, I guess, the edge of some kind of new way of being for men that, you know, we're certainly very supportive of, but that isn't very clear yet and causes some pain along the way. And I think one place we've just been talking about this that we'll explore today is, yeah, in intimate relationships, this idea that oftentimes, you know, our partners, partners and men we've worked with and, you know, I would argue in the culture at large, there's kind of this identity idea that women, you know, we're talking kind of hetero relationships here, but that women want to feel their men being more vulnerable. I want to feel him more. I want him to be more emotional. I want to feel his vulnerability. And that a bind we've seen is then men sometimes do that and their partners don't actually like it. And it kind of puts them into this catch 22 of wait, what? I thought you wanted that. And then they bring it forward, and a partner might actually get freaked out or shut it down or withdraw or react in some way. So we kind of, we're going to speak about that and some of these other reasons here today.
Luke Adler: It's, I think, uniquely challenging for me sometimes because I'm. I get protective of men. You know, we. We do this work professionally. We're working to help men become more emotionally literate, more skillful in articulating their feelings, more skillful at holding space for themselves, for their partners, their family, co workers, friends. And then when I hear this happen to a man, he's wanting to share something with his partner or someone else who's close to them, and he gets shut down by his partner, literally told, don't do that. Don't show emotion or manipulated in some Way like gas lit, meaning he's told that what he's feeling is incorrect or not accurate or he's being needy.
Jason Lange: It. It's.
Luke Adler: It's hurtful to hear that because, you know, Jason, you and I work so hard to help men come out of the shell, come out of the. The cave of storing their pain. That, you know, for a man to get beat down, back into it is disheartening. But it shows us that this work is not just about an individual man. It's about culture. And, you know, I literally had someone tell me last week, a man in his early 60s, he had a bunch of physical health issues. And I started to sense there was some emotional stuff. And I said, hey, you know, is there a place you can share this? And he said, anytime he brings it forward to his wife, his wife literally says, stop it right now. Don't do that. And he explained to me that his wife's father was from World War II generation, where you definitely stored your pain. It wasn't appropriate socially to show emotion because it was truly a time of survival. And it was a great reminder that culturally, some of these traditions are. Are rooted, you know, in not so distant, distant past. You know, and this was a gentleman who was in Vietnam, and he said, you know, a World War II vet and a Vietnam vet. Very different. Very different mentality, very different culture. And I could really respect that. And he had an understanding of it, too. Nevertheless, this man was still very much suffering because a lot of his physiological dysfunction was LinkedIn not having a place to put his emotion. And so he would tell me he would spend hours mowing the lawn, gardening, just to have time in nature.
Jason Lange: Right?
Luke Adler: And this is what a lot of men do. They'll exercise a lot, they'll get out into nature. You know, these are kind of healthier coping mechanisms. Right. But they're still not addressing the wound and the problem that is, you know, widespread. Right. This is. This is a cultural issue where men, even as they're doing the work, coming to men's gatherings, whether it's with us or, you know, a number of other wonderful men's offerings, you know, they. They come back into their lives and the problem is still there. Yeah.
Jason Lange: And I. This is so widespread. And so, again, want to give the kind of high level here. I've talked about a lot, and we've talked about a lot of. We're getting hit from many angles here as men. There's. There's the cultural layer, there's the preconceptions of what a man is Supposed to be. From a young age, a lot of men get kind of stuffed, so to speak, like we've talked about, into the man box of don't show weakness, always be tough, don't emote. And paradoxically then, you know, one of the only places we're supposed to be emotional is with our intimate partner. Right. They're often sharing that, they want that. So a lot of men have nowhere to bring it. They finally bring it to their intimate partner. And this is not the case with every woman. So I want to make that super clear here. But just like not every man, because, you know, I work with them, has the capacity to hold space yet until they've done a little bit of work on their nervous system, their ability to set boundaries, their ability to be present. This is something, you know, some of us are more naturally inclined for and some have to train in. But some women don't really know how to hold space, particularly for a man in his emotional pain. So they're wanting to feel more connected to him emotionally. But then he finally brings it forward and it actually freaks him out. And like you said, like her, that shut it down in some capacity or say, I just can't hold you in that. I've had countless stories from clients of that. And I think this puts men in this, this deep kind of bind they're in of. Well then what do I do with this stuff? Well, I gotta, yeah, escape it by doing high performance sports or getting out into nature or porn or wheat or the various things we've talked about. And kind of what we want to point to here is maybe some lessons learned, certainly from my own experience and that we're starting to see in, you know, the work we've done with clients as to. Yeah, how do we deal with that problem of as men, you know, why are we so afraid to come forward with our emotional selves and how do we create healthy containers to do that in including into our, in our intimate relationship. And I do think, you know, our partners have to have a certain amount of capacity to be able to hold space. And with that, just like it takes it for us as facilitators of the work and for men, you know, but for women too, you have to have some capacity for boundarying yourself. This is some work I had to do pretty heavily last year of realizing that just because my partner's nervous system was in a state, I didn't have to meet her in that to support her. So my nervous system didn't actually have to take on that dysregulation in order to be present in my connection with her. And I actually had to learn the boundary of like, okay, what she's feeling, she gets to feel right now I don't have to have that experience. And I think that's a muscle that sometimes women don't necessarily have as well. That, okay, he can be in his grief and doesn't mean I have to fall into it per se. Then the, the other key thing I did want to mention.
Luke Adler: Is I think.
Jason Lange: Again, this is the bind. A lot of men particularly haven't felt safe or had the experience of being able to bring forward their vulnerability to other men without it being attacked or shamed or, you know, because of comparison or just the dumb bullshit we get fed. I think sometimes if a man's only place to bring this forward is to his woman, to his intimate partner, it's that that's the most scary for a woman, right? It's, oh, wow, I can feel there's nobody else to hold this with you. And that can be overwhelming. I mean, even outside intimate relationship, right? I've been in interactions with people who are really in a hard place and it's like, whoa, there's nowhere else for them right now. It's just me. Suddenly it's like there's a pressure. I'm like, oh my God, they're well being. What if I fuck this up? Da da, da da. I think partners can sometimes feel that of, wow, I'm the only one holding this with him. Well, that means I have to stay holding space for him. And what happens if I get dysregulated? Is he going to be okay? And that's a lot of pressure. And what we've seen certainly in the groups you and I have created through the Heart of Shadow, and I've certainly seen in my life, in the many struggles I've been through, is the moment that connection is also met. I build that connection, bring that pain to other people. It totally changes my partner's capacity to be with me in it. She can feel that I'm being held in something larger than just our partnership. And I've told a lot of the guys I've worked with, you know, just. We love fucking metaphors. And you know, it's like electric circuitry. There's the single circuit. Like, remember the old Christmas lights? They're all in a line. If one light goes out, power on, the whole string goes out, right? Like the, the whole thing doesn't work. And I think that's the bind sometimes men get in of, oh my God. I have nowhere else I feel safe to bring this. So I'm going to bring it to my intimate partner and then they can feel, fuck, there's no one else holding this. So if something doesn't go right in our connection, like the whole system is going to shut down versus, you know, the newer parallel circuits. It's like, yeah, no one light can go out and the whole string will stay lit up. Right. There's still multiple pathways where it's not all flowing through one conduit. And a men's group in particular, I think can be that. Right. Suddenly we have different channels to bring this to, and different men have different capacities in the moment to hold us in our pain or whatever might be going on. And when that circuits online, I have found in my relationship, my partner feels way more relaxed being with me. In my experience, it doesn't hesitate in quite the same way.
Luke Adler: Yeah, I mean, that, that concentricity of support that you're talking about is the first thing that's missing in a group dynamic, namely a partnership. And when there's not enough support in a system and that all compounds upon the, the partners. The, the heteronormative, you know, man and woman here. It's just too much. It's too much electricity, like you're saying, Jason, and the circuit's gonna blow. It's. It's too much pain for two people to hold alone. And that, of course, can lead to like a measurement and kind of like an early stage relationship where you isolate from others and you're just of holding this private kind of cult of two around your wounds. Right. Which eventually just becomes very dysfunctional because it's again, too much to hold. The, the beauty of a men's group is you have, you know, you have six, seven, eight, nine men who are holding this, offering perspectives. But what we're ultimately doing for each other's nervous system, whether it's the initial catharsis of shadow work or just having the space be held by others, is we're learning to hold space or spaciousness within our bodies for our experience. And this is the distinction you made when we were talking is that when we then bring our emotion to our women or our feminine partners, and our feminine partner can feel us holding our pain, our grief, our rage, our confusion. She can feel us holding our pain rather than we're saying, here, honey, hold my pain. I can't hold it. Will you hold it for me? She all of a sudden relaxes and goes, whoa. This is a man who can hold his pain. He can Articulate it, and I can hold it with him if I want to. But I'm not obligated out of a fear of his fear for his survival, his mental, emotional health to hold this. I feel, oh, my man can hold his world up. Now, that's different than storing or suppressing his pain. That's not what we're talking about. A man who's holding his pain is not holding it and storing it and suppressing it down in his hips and genitals and liver and joints. No, no. It can come all the way to the surface. I can be wailing, I can be crying, I can be complaining, but I'm simultaneously holding it with awareness. Meaning I am aware that I am feeling this right now and I'm okay with that. It's not shattering me. The other thing that arises is that when we gain that ability to hold our pain and we come to a partner or a person or a friend or a patient or a co worker and we decide, you know what, I'm going to share this with them, and let's just say our partner can't hold it. They're unable to, they don't want to. And they start to behave with us in an immature way or from their own wounding and survival, most likely survival strategy. And they might gaslight us. They might be passive aggressive.
Jason Lange: They might.
Luke Adler: They might just be a jerk in some way. You know, a mean we gain the ability because we're holding space for ourself and we have enough awareness through enough work to hold space for the relationship to say to our partner, hey, I'm not going to have this conversation with you if you can't meet me with respect and maturity right now. And that's where as far as our leadership and skill building, we can grow to that as we dive into this work and have more support and learn to hold space for our experience and the experience of the relationship to be able to navigate when we start to become manipulative with each other or younger parts of ourselves start to come forward to negotiate the relationship when we feel unsafe. So the power of the men's group is not just this place where we can come and emote. It's this place where we're training and we're building the energetic and nervous system strength to hold whatever's moving through us, whatever might be moving through us emotionally, historically, traumatically, sexually, aspirationally, etc.
Jason Lange: Yes, so true. You know, a theme I think we really point to that we've spoken about before is this path of building intimacy with these different Pieces of ourselves. And part of that skill building we're talking about there is where couples can get in trouble. Right. Is when it's my past wounded self. Relating to your past wounded self and mapping on these wounds of the past onto the present moment. And the real challenge with that is it's not an actual authentic connection based around what's happening between us right now. It's all of my existing wounding. I'm bringing in a. You know, it's coming forth like it's true right now. You know, this kind of time travel thing we often work with where it's like our body doesn't know the difference between that past moment we were in threat and what's happening right now. And the training you're talking about is we start to build a relationship with our wounding, with our trauma, to become really clear and aware of when it's showing up. So then we can take responsibility for it and notice when that part of us is there is, hey, I'm feeling incredibly reactive right now. I don't have the capacity to be here and talk about this. I need to go walk around the block and reset. And then I'd love to dive back into this because I noticed my nervous system just feels like I'm five years old right now. And if I'm five years old, we can't get shit done. You know, like, that's the honest truth. That skill building is so important, and we get to do that safely. You know, in. In a group. That's one of the things we really get to practice where, you know, with. With the amount of men we work with and the container we hold, like, we have plenty of space for people's wounded selves and young selves. Right. There's a lot of capacity there in a way that is also liberated from. We're not in an intimate relationship with you in the same way. So we don't necessarily. We can still get triggered for sure, but it's not quite as high stakes as with your primary partner. And the other thing I just wanted to circle back to. Yeah. Like you said, is I think, because, you know, I've noticed this and we've been talking about this of like, when does a man feel trustable in his feeling and when does he feel less trustable? This is maybe the way I'm thinking of framing this. And I think a big part of that. Yeah. Is on that ability to kind of hold and not be totally collapsed in it. So there's still like a. And I here a little bit of my adult self Even with me in that pain. In that. I think oftentimes, particularly when women, you know, I used to get this feedback from my wife. I've definitely heard of it in clients. Like, I want to feel you more. I want you to be more vulnerable. I think we can interpret that as men as, oh, she wants me to share everywhere I'm in pain and everything I'm scared about, like, ah. When I don't think that's the case, I think what women, and this is what's so confusing for us men are often asking for is I want to feel you connected to your emotional experience, to be in touch with it, not stuffing it, not overwhelmed by it, and for you to be okay with it. Right? Like, I'm sad right now, right? Yeah, man, I'm so fucking sad right now. That was really hard what happened at work today, or that fight I had with my friend or whatever, which is very different than, oh, my God, I don't know what to do, right? There's like a kind of a collapsing sometimes. And you know, what I've kind of talked about before, I think particularly for women, it can be hard is, you know, they don't. They maybe another way to think about this that's been coming up for me is, you know, one of the emotions sometimes will work with in men and certainly in couples that I think doesn't necessarily get as much attention as some of the other big ones, like shame and anger and grief, is disgust. And I think particularly with intimate partners. I've certainly seen it in couples I've worked with and sometimes felt it in myself. If we feel a partner go too far back almost to, like, that infantile stage, there's actually a little bit of a disgust, right? Because it's like, oh, I can't. And there's reasons for that. You know, we're biologically programmed, you know, in a sense, to avoid that. And so I think if a partner, if in partnership, we start to feel our partner regress too far back where there's like, their infinite infant energy, it can elicit kind of a disgust reaction versus, you know, yeah, I'm here. Oh, man, you know, I can feel my infant just, like, wailing. He's crying. Maybe I'm crying right now, but, like, I'm still here. It's like such a subtle thing that, you know, you and I are trying to navigate, like, how to talk about this, but I think as part of what I'm pointing to here, that we get to train up that capacity with each other as men and we don't have any safe spaces to do that a lot of the time. So we don't know how to do this, this very nuanced thing of. To bring our full feeling self and not to be totally collapsed in it. And that takes, you know, the paradox of that I think is it does take a safe environment where we can fully collapse in it with other people consensually holding the space for us that while they're holding the space, they get to help us build that bridge between being totally in the emotional experience. And can you also feel the rest of you now the adult that can be present in that room with that part of you and you know, the kind of titration back and forth that we sometimes lead guys through and then suddenly they have this capacity that builds up of like, okay, yeah, I can be, I can feel that part of me here and that's just a part of me. I'm not collapsing or fusing into that. Which then means they can bring, we can bring our emotional experience to our partners in this very different way which I am kind of asserting here is I think what they're actually wanting.
Luke Adler: I heard a man just last week, he was sharing his process and that he became aware that he was behaving from like a five year old point of view with his partner and acquiescing to all of her needs and you know, being very gentle and always attuned and feeling, he used the word, he felt like he was walking on eggshells to try to say things in a way that would make her feel whatever safe, you know, heard. And when he realized that he had been, you know, kind of participating in this manipulative dynamic, you know, because he wasn't bringing forward his honest truth, which is something for us to touch on now, he used the word, he was, he, he was sickened, you know, like you said, disgust. He was absolutely sickened by what he had allowed himself to participate in for years, that when she would start to shut down, he would kind of do anything to restore connection except for bring forward his, his absolute truth, which was that this was absolutely not working for him. The dynamic, the shutting down, the stonewalling, the, the kind of abandonment of presence. What I call the silence, or excuse me, the violence of silence when your partner goes silent on you. There's a kind of violence to that because they refuse to reveal anything and you're left not knowing where you stand, what's the status of the relationship. So as he sat with his, his disgust, this feeling of being nauseous and Sickened by what he had participated in, he could feel what you and I distinguish as healthy shame. He could feel the remorse, the regret of having behaved in this way, which birthed in him enough awareness to realize he didn't want to ever do that again. Right? And that was the gift of disgust in his, his gaining of awareness of it. And of course, her complaint was that she was repulsed by how needy he was, right? But the problem is she never communicated. So the more she would shut down, the more needy he became. Because, you know, it was just this awful dynamic of disconnection as he worked on himself and restored his dignity and got clear about his needs and his desires. He could come forward with integrity, with awareness, with neutrality, you know, not blaming her. He was a full participant in this dynamic to state his needs and what he wanted and, and risk having the relationship not work out. Ultimately, in these dynamics where we're not bringing our full truth forward, we're trading, you know, pennies on the dollar or peanuts on the feast for love. You know, we're willing to take just a tiny bit instead of the full, you know, the full satiation of connection. And ultimately, when I look at these dynamics, I think, you know, there's, there's self worth there, there's often dynamics of, you know, not having secure attachment from our parents growing up, not getting the love we needed. So we're willing to take just, just a tiny bit of love and attention is like, is acceptable to our nervous system and maybe even just feels familiar and safe. So we just won't confront certain things in relationship because we're like, well, this is pretty good. You know, I don't want to risk losing the, the tiny bit I'm getting. But the nervous system ultimately doesn't lie. The, the body tells the truth and our health starts to suffer. You know, we, we can't live on a tiny bit of love. We can't live on, you know, 5% oxygen in the atmosphere. We can't ultimately live with a tiny bit of food. To me, you can survive with shelter and water, right? But you can't thrive without love. You can't. And I've been saying this a lot the last two months, but love is, it's scary. It's scary for the, for the, a lot of nervous systems connection is, is scary. And, and you know, this work that we're offering, it's not, it's not that it's not for everyone. It really is for everyone. But not everyone's kind of ready to open their systems to receive more Nourishment from self, from a group of men that love them, from their partners. It's just too much, too soon. And so I think that's a place where, like traditional therapy, cbt, dbt, dialectic, behavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy is really great because you're just learning. You're learning tools about how to think and contextualize your life. And that's a wonderful place to start doing inner work, where you're just trying to understand at the level of the mind yourself. What's different about what Jason and I offer is that we take it. We take it to its furthest depth, meaning once you understand it cognitively, there's this dive, there's this. There's this threshold to jump into, to cross, which is the somatic, the nervous system, the body's holding of all this pain. And that's where you really gain the skill and the capacity to live a life that you really, really want to, but you have to kind of. You have to kind of arrive at that place. You have to be ready for that. Ready to begin to not just intellectually share the truth, but to let that truth resonate through you and into your relationships and build the skills necessary to cultivate an emotion, psycho emotional life, spiritual life, that. That is really generative. So this is a very big journey. And, you know, I hope we never. We never want to make it sound like it's simple or easy, because it's not. Love is the most difficult pursuit. To love and be loved is. Is so challenging. And it's, of course, the most worthy challenge to take up. So we were. I just want to spell that out. That, you know, if you're resonating with this and you're a little afraid, that's normal. That's good.
Jason Lange: You.
Luke Adler: You should be feeling the nerves around it, and it's all learnable and doable, and there needs to be a sense that, hey, I am ready. I'm ready for this. I want this in my life.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think what's coming up for me there is, like you said, the body doesn't lie. And there's a truthfulness. Right. There's a kind of truth that lives in our nervous system in any given moment. And our emotions are kind of the pathway there. They're the signs pointing there. So I think this is one of the key things. Again, while sometimes, particularly, I'd say nice guys, but really, humans, men in general, don't want to bring fear, bringing their emotional selves forward. It's because their emotions tend to point to the truth. And sometimes the truth is, this is not working for me. I cannot live this way. And that's disruptive, right? Emotions and like I've talked about before, they. They can have a disruptive quality to them. Right? Because they are. They're meant to cause us to react to our environment. Right. It's like a biochemical thing. And a lot of us men certainly, you know, in my journey of recovery from nice guide them and being numb and shut down, I didn't have the nervous system capacity, I just didn't have the experience in my nervous system to realize it's possible to be in conflict with someone and stay in connection. I can be in conflict with you. My emotional experience may be different than the truth of your emotional experience right now. And that doesn't mean I'm going to die. And it doesn't even necessarily mean our connection is over. And the honest truth we're pointing to here is until that's all on the table, we're not actually even in a real relationship. We're relating to these concepts of each other. And that's like, you know, we're pointing to kind of the Jedi level of bringing yourself forward as a man in relationship. And not everybody is up for that, and not. Not every man is even up for that in terms of just bringing it to the other men and the types of groups we create. But it's where when we do have the experience of being able to go there, something else becomes possible. Something opens in us. Something actually relaxes in us. And so I. Yeah, just. There's so many reasons us men often fear bringing that emotionality forward. But I think that is one of them is it does take a certain resilience to be honest about what we're feeling. And that it may actually, if I bring this forward, I love how you've, like, in a sense, framed it so simply. The risk is this could end my relationship. I was really true about this, really brought it forward. This might end my relationship. But that's kind of necessary, I would say, in this deeper level of relating we're pointing to. And then just one last thing I wanted to mention here, too, that you and I were talking about. That, I think is another reason I've sometimes seen men hesitate to bring their full emotionality forward is there's a pretty unique texture, I would argue, in quality to the pain men and the masculine can feel sometimes. And one manifestation of this I've seen, and so this is anecdotal, I'm going to own that this is just based on my Experiences working with men, being in men's groups for a long time is for many men, I have worked with the idea it is not uncommon for them to have the thought in some capacity of, I just want to eject from life. I just want to. I can't do any of this. I just want to leave my fucking family. I want to commit suicide. I want to, like, drink myself. I just want to go away. It's so overwhelming. I just want to go away and disappear. And I've worked with many men who. It's been a huge edge for them to share. Like, yeah, I've, you know, I've thought about just ending it. Like, I've actually had these thoughts. And what I'll just share is I think one of the unique things that is common to not all, but many men is we've felt that in some capacity. And I don't think it quite manifests in the same way for women and the feminine. You know, those two aren't always correlated. But so, point being, you know, this is one in particular I think men are just sometimes afraid to bring forward. Like, fuck, I've had thoughts of just like, getting the fuck out of this whole game of life. Like, I just. I don't know if I have it in me. Like, oh, my God, I don't want to, you know, put that on someone else's feet. Like, what are they going to do? My wife might freak out. Like. But what I have seen is men bring that to other men and there's just like a. Oh, fuck, yeah, I totally get it. I've been there in my own way, right? There's not even in, like, I gotta fix you, or, oh, my God, we gotta call emergency services. You know, there's a time and place for that, but sometimes there's just like, I totally get that. And that being received is such a game changer for so many men. Just like, oh, you understand, I'm not alone in that feeling anymore. And that's one that I think a lot of men have just never quite had enough trust with people around them to necessarily bring forward.
Luke Adler: It's why you and I go to such great lengths in Heart of Shadow. And we're always learning more about how to refine the program and how to make it more precise, pristine, in a certain sense, for men to feel safe, for a man to feel safe to bring a thought like that, right? And you and I have been in sessions where men have shared that. Where men have shared and the catharsis that comes like, you know, a man who might have been holding something for 30 years and has never told a soul, and then feels the safety of the group, who.
Jason Lange: Who.
Luke Adler: He's. He's known these guys for four or five weeks and shares something like that or even. Even. Even more intense than thinking about it in your life. And so we can talk about the Heart of Shadow or Shadow work as, you know, a safe place. I think ultimately, the vision that you and I have that we're dreaming into is a world where men feel safe and they have the strength, the safety, and the strength to share what's true, what's vulnerable, to hold that with integrity in a relationship, to hold that with dignity in their own being, and to begin to create a life, a family structure, to teach their children the same values and to shape a whole culture and world that is reflective of.
Jason Lange: Love.
Luke Adler: Respect, sovereignty for each other and our own unique experience. And that's really our kind of North Star in this work. And we feel like Heart of Shadow is absolutely a crucible for that. And I think it's something just. You and I will always be refining that offering because it. It does feel like the most important thing, not just for men, but for society to have is healthy men, healthy masculine presence that can hold vulnerability, dignity, and strength, doesn't have to shy away from it. And, yeah, our next cohort, I think we're starting sometime in September, at least digitally or online, and then a retreat in mid November, which you can join the wait list for at this point. So check that out. Keep listening to our podcasts. We're committed to just continuing to create offerings towards that end. And I'll pass it back to you, Jason, for some closeout. Luke Adler: Thanks brother.
Jason Lange: If you're interested in working with me around dating relationships or your masculine presence in the world, just go to Evolutionary Men. Apply.
